Abu Muqawama: Post
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Atone, Crazy People
It's a little odd being in Jerusalem on Yom Kippur. Because cars are banned from the roads, you can literally walk down deserted four-lane arteries in the middle of the day, which is kinda eerie.
For a long time, this blog has steered clear of all things related to Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and that policy is likely to continue. Normal, sane human beings just go full retard when anything related to the Holy Land, Right of Return, Jerusalem, Settlements, etc. are mentioned. Some great examples of this can be found in the comments section of this post, which had nothing to even do with Israel or the Palestinians. But I mentioned that I ate some kunafeh with some friends in Nablus and then went to the beach in Herzliya, and this is what happens. What is wrong with you people?
- "For someone who has said previously that they have only spent 8 days in Israel sure seams to be spending a lot of time there. The West Bank may be under Palistinian control but it is still part of Israel. From what I have heard on the news I would not want to go anywhere near the West Bank or any of the Palistinian controlled parts of the region. Hamas has said repeatedly that they would like to wipe Israel of the map. And it's not just Hamas. It's every country in the region particularly Iran. ... So for someone who claims to have held the rank of captain (after obtaining said rank a full 8 months before the law allows) and a U.S citizen why are you spending so much time in a place you've said you've only spent 8 days at? And of the time you've spent in that area why have you spent it with those who seek to destroy America and Israel? Why spend time with those who say America is the "Great Satan" and Israel is the "Little Satan?" Do you not love freedom that you swore an oath to defend? I think you're better suited as a diplomat for Hamas."
- "Are Tenneseans allowed to use the "Israeli only" roads in the West Bank? How foul was the stench of American subsidized apartheid?"
- "Wondering who "some friends" are. Fatah or Hamas? While you stomp around with Palestinian terrorists, I wonder why it is that you ignore the elephant in the room that is Islamic human nature. Does COIN have its place? Sure. Will it work in countries of people who do not believe in borders, and whose objective (according to the Koran) is to die in jihad? HELL NO!"
This comes to
This comes to mind...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTwgNhX4BSo
Im sorry, Abu M, it was me
Im sorry, Abu M, it was me broke the code.
But I still find it fascinating that the situation is so extreme that one of the US leading think thanks refuses to even discuss the Israeli/Palestine question, and its impact into greater strategic decisions.Talk about being under the heel. Bibi just showed Obama where he can stick his peace-initiative, and newspapers like Jerusalem Post openly declare Obama a enemy of the Israeli people while simultaneously demanding an attack on Iran made by the US. Obama just faced his first great challenge and got crushed by the Israeli machine, changing his wording from a "stop" in settlements to a "slowing down" in the 12th hour, something noticed by the whole arab world. Lieberman has called Norway, Sweden, Spain and Ireland for anti-semitic states, Theyre basically telling your president and his more liberal allies to go ¤#%# themselves, and nobody reacts in the US, its just those cute Israelis again. Lets do give them some more money.
And for the record, Im not sure the term "apartheid-roads" for the segregated trafficsystem of the West Bank is all that off the wall, if you look at the praxis. Now the deluge of anti-semitism accusations can commence.
It strikes me that the
It strikes me that the attitudes expressed in points 1 & 3 above might have a lot to do with the difficulty this country has had with actually executing the COIN strategies that we've had on paper for three years now.
If a significant number of Americans keep on thinking that EVERY Muslim needs to be killed (including the ones who supply the oil for their fucking gigantic pickup trucks that they so happily cling to) then we are NEVER going to win this war.
As an aspiring Marine who's heading off to training (and then, in all likelihood, to Afghanistan) in just a few days, I have no problem with the concept of killing people who are intent on killing us. But perhaps the asinine conviction that ALL of them want to kill us has something to do with the fact that so many of them do. Developing positive relations with Arabs who don't wish us harm is really the only way that this war is ever going to end. So perhaps we can all shut the fuck up and allow Ex to have a few friends who just happen to pray facing Mecca.
AM: Steering clear of the
AM:
Steering clear of the politics is probably impossible, so I find the travel reports kind of fun, myself. Hiked Masada yet? Been subjected to the squalor of the Tel Aviv Central Bus Station or its pristine peer in Jerusalem? Swam in the Dead Sea? Gone to the waterfalls on the Golan? Looked at the Lebanese border from Metulla? Experienced Tel Aviv/Israeli architecture (a grimy x-flat with the parking on the first floor)? Marveled at the dying remnants of the kibbutz movement?
ADTS
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117348.html
Hilarious. The behavior in
Hilarious. The behavior in your blog comments is reminiscent of the political climate when Bush was in office. Dick Cheney ate children (and perhaps still does). You are a foot soldier of the Islamic Jihad. Does the Mossad know this?
Abu M, three things: 1- The
Abu M, three things:
1- The first trule of internet trolls is that you don't talk about (much less to) internet trolls.
2- The second trule of internet trolls is that you don't talk about (much less to) internet trolls.
3- I'd really, really like to know what the CNAS hive mind thinks about Israel-Palestine, and how (or whether) it can be solved. But from your post I guess this is off limits...
Lately I've noticed a
Lately I've noticed a tremendous amount of anti-Muslim bigotry expressed in the comments section of this blog. What's up with that? (I'm no PC liberal type... more of an American nationalist who believes that provincial orientalism hurts the mission -- and prays that none of the people characterizing Islam as the Land of Mordor have any jobs influencing policy)
As for the first comment quoted by Abu M, the guy clearly has never been to the West Bank. They love Americans over there. Hell, I side with the Palestinians on the sole basis of the fact that I never had to tell one to go fuck himself while I studied in Israel... they're genuinely nicer than Israelis. Flip side is the Israelis put out to white American college students...
PS: Abu M, I'm heading to Ft Benning in three months and would love some advice on how to get my captain's bars eight months early.
"I cannot recognise either
"I cannot recognise either the Palestinian state or the Israeli state. The Palestinians are idiots and the Israelis are idiots."
- Muammar al-Gaddafi
posted by Al Huwaga
I am in awe of the degree of
I am in awe of the degree of trollishness that considers you to be suspicious because you're too near the Muslims...in Israel.
@Visiteur Any constructive
@Visiteur
Any constructive talk on how to "solve" I/P has to be founded on a common understanding of the material reality of the situation and mutual comprehension of the problematic. This has never occurred and, in fact, scientists haven't yet reached a consensus on whether this is even physically possible.
I'd love, however, to see a discussion of the meteoric rise in influence of the ultra-orthodox community in Israel. It fundamentally alters the dynamic. See for example: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/a-hostile-takeover-of-zioni...
Bless me Andrew for I have
Bless me Andrew for I have sinned. It has been 3 months since I read FM 3-24 and 6 months since I watched the Battle of Algiers.
"Flip side is the Israelis
"Flip side is the Israelis put out to white American college students..."
And if you're from the UK?
Walt and Mearsheimer noted
Walt and Mearsheimer noted in their book that members of our Congress have sharply different views on a number of positions, especially hot-button issues like abortion, death penalty, and health care. These differences lead to heated debate on the floor. However, this same legislative body that is at each others throats about many subjects, harmoniously unite on the subject of Israel.
W and M place the blame for this debate stifling situation on The Lobby. Any Senator or Representative that deviates from a pro-Israel position is subject to retaliation (see Earl Hilliard).
Exum is wise to avoid this topic. He will go far in his career.
"And if you're from the
"And if you're from the UK?"
I'm told it depends on your patter - but the booze is way, way cheaper!
BTW AM - during your time in
BTW AM - during your time in London did you learn how the knee-jerks there when I/P is mentioned? I can't imagine its any saner but is it different?
I still support the efforts
I still support the efforts to keep the blog's comments section totally open even if it gets crazy/full retard.
Six words, dude. Do not feed
Six words, dude. Do not feed the energy creature. Or, if you give any space to trolls, you've just legitimized them.
What Fumbles and Karaka
What Fumbles and Karaka said.
Also, it's not very nice to use the word "retard," young people. Well, I'd rather write that prudish scolding line than wade into the crazy. No, wait, I think I will wade into the crazy, after all.
Why does this particular issue, out of all of the issues in the world, bring out the crazy on Western Centric blogs? I say Western Centric because the most vociferous and, well, frankly frightening, threads I've ever seen are still the Indian grad students versus the Chinese grad students (I'm assuming the trolls are such, I don't know for sure). Jeez, I sure hope some of you wonky types are paying attention.
Please tell me that you are paying attention.
*Seriously, though, why this issue? There are other conflicts with greater loss of life and potentially much more dangerous for the world (India-Pakistan). What proxy does Israel-Palestine serve that it brings out the bat-guano crazy, as stated here before? Is it just anti-semitism + anti-Muslim bigotry + post-Cold War-proxy-death-match residua that is stirred up, or something? You know what? Maybe ignoring the conflict *would* be better - all that time and money and effort! Put man on the moon for less, you know?
"Free the Trolls!! Free the
"Free the Trolls!! Free the Trolls!!"
Bring back ANON BOLD
Thereby trolling myself....
AM since someone else (M/F Hebrew) raised it....score any Sabra הנרתיק?
@Mahdu...now now. Wars have been fought over the noble bat guano....
Visteur - "Trule" - Great pun!
I/P - what do you all have against the Internet Protocol?? Are you all laid off Novel administrators? Get past it, it's over...
@Fnord, Dude, you have it
@Fnord,
Dude, you have it backwards somewhat. It's Israel telling the UN they're done eating shit in silence (past due).
What's really of earth trembling import there is I don't think it's ever happened. A country founded by the UN is declaring its' ...Independence? And it's an implied message to Big Friend Uncle Sam who has shown his fickle side to one too many allies....that Israel can and will go it alone.
EOM @Fnord,
Not to mention the entire fraudulent "International Community" may now be exposed as the would be Emperor with no clothes..or followers. Someone pointed out in an article yesterday in a UK paper that such talk at the G-20 meeting is perceived differently on the respective sides of the Atlantic. Old World Nations (Europe) take global talk cynically and as just more hot air.
In America talk of "Global Governance" and "One World" is taken quite seriously - since America was founded on civic Sacred Texts. How we are governed and by whom is very important to us.
Elf: Israel has been telling
Elf: Israel has been telling the UN to screw itself for many years. Whats new is that it is also telling the US to go screw itself. What freaks me out is that the US establishment is reacting like a S/M bottom, licking it up as they humiliate your CiC in public.
I keep on wondering how it is in the US strategic interest to let them keep on behaving like 14 year old adolescents. If the US puts Israel over Europe as allies, feel free to go ahead and keep on being their dawgs. Due to the mounting pressure of the Euro arab street, as well as the left, at some time this shit has got to stop. For one nation to deny the inspection of the IAEA while simultaniously denying them the right to inspect their own nuclear facilities, thats the height of hypocricy. The example of Israel really really really hurts the hearts and minds struggle over here, not least the very rudeness of the way they are doing it. Not being team-players at all, etc.. As far as I can see, its time for sanctions.
@Fnord: I for one agree. As
@Fnord:
I for one agree. As I said above, I'm an American nationalist... and I don't see how Israel at this point figures positively in our strategic interests.
Exum doesn't want Israel vs Palestine spats here, but what about Israel vs (or vis-a-vis) US national interest? That can be managed respectfully, I think, and it would be a fruitful discussion.
@Fnord, I'm on way
@Fnord,
I'm on way out...look if you can't tell the diff between Israel and Iran you are seriously lost....they've had nukes since 68...probably...have they ever threatened to use them? Iran may well. When Israel had nukes the region largely ignored it. With Iran getting nukes it's setting off nuclear arms races from Saudi to Brazil.
Read the substance of the speech by Bibi Fnord. Never mind the UN processes.
Oh, and you are missing the signif of the Israeli PM standing in the UN telling them to be either relevant and stand up to the madman, or piss off forever.
I'm for piss off forever. Farce.
I doubt that, actually.
I doubt that, actually. Israel/Palestine seems to be a focal point for all the 1) people who haven't worked out what the American national interest is, outside the context of a perceived existential threat, and so are prone to adopt other people's causes as their own, 2) Islamophobes, 3) anti-Semites, 4) Americans looking for an opportunity to display their alienation, for whom an American ally is a useful proxy, 5) Europeans looking for an opportunity to look down their noses at Americans and 6) people who cannot resist arguments with no solution that go on and on and on. The last category may be the one that keeps blog threats going longest.
בן זונה on September
בן זונה on September 28, 2009 - 9:01am wrote:
PS: Abu M, I'm heading to Ft Benning in three months and would love some advice on how to get my captain's bars eight months early.
That's easy. Don't get more than 3 DUI's, don't lose your weapon more than once, and don't get relieved too many times. Standards are dropping.
favorite comment from last
favorite comment from last one:
Comment by Visitor but not a troll. on September 28, 2009 - 8:48am
I want to understand all of this before the Dan Brown novel about CNAS come out. According to some on here Andrew is a Zionist, who may hate or love Isreal, who is friends with Hamas & Hezbollah or maybe just Hezbollah. He is a former Army Ranger who doesn't care about the American soldiers, pals around with terrorists and just spent sometime in the terrorist hotbed of Paris. He also enjoys long walks on the beach & kunafeh. Also, CNAS is a combination of Skull and Bones and the Trilateral Commission. Andrew do you have the skull of Geronimo on your desk as a paper weight & where do the Masons fit in on the CNAS org chart.
LOL.
Elf: While I agree with you
Elf: While I agree with you that Iranian nukes are more sinister than Israeli nukes, its more about the principle. Try seeing it from a pov of a middle educated say, Iraqi guy: On the one hand the west demands that Iran follow international law, hell when it comes to nuclear power they demand that Iran abstain from following International Law and curb their own right of use. On the other hand, Israel is allowed to thumb its nose at any and all international obligations, sticking everyone with the anti-semite label. To repeat: Israel is actively working against Obamas peace initiative, openly and without any pretense wishing him to faiul. But they still demand that the US do as they are told w. regards to Iran. In my opinion, the Emirates have been much more constructive allies of the west. I would like to hear their opinion on Iran emerging, and what actions they deem suitable.
Agreed w mr. hebrew that a discussion of US strategic interests concerning Israel and its current govment and political climate would be interesting, and hopefully civil. From a nationalistic Norwegian pov, Im sick and tired of watching a country publicly insult my country, interfer in our academic debates, threatening repercussions to free speech *while at the same time* recieving weapons and favourable nation-status. It just doesnt add up.
"*Seriously, though, why
"*Seriously, though, why this issue? There are other conflicts with greater loss of life and potentially much more dangerous for the world (India-Pakistan)." Madhu
Madhu, do you understand that many of the voices here represent one or another side of that issue? Do you know how much of your tax money is spent by the US in military aid to Israel?
Have you heard of Operation Cast Lead?
Consider, please, Madhu, why does Elf think the fact that Iran MAY use nuclear weapons capabilities yet to be developed as more important than the fact that Israel has nuclear weapon capabilities?
He says they've had such capability since '68. However, according to a Haaretz (Isarel news) report, 9.19.09 post from Reuter's:
"Israel is one of only three countries worldwide along with India and Pakistan outside the nuclear NPT and is widely assumed to have the Middle East's only nuclear arsenal, though it has never confirmed or denied this." [...]
"Arab states in the United Nations nuclear assembly on Friday won narrow approval of a resolution urging Israel to put all its atomic sites under the world body's inspection and join the Non-Proliferation Treaty."
"Israel deplored the measure for singling it out while many of its neighbors remained hostile to its existence, and said it would not cooperate with it."
"The non-binding resolution, which passed for the first time in 18 years of attempts thanks to more developing nation votes, voiced concern about "Israeli nuclear capabilities" and urged the International Atomic Energy Agency to tackle the issue."
Consider also the following information, from the nobelwomensinitiative.org
"Ten Nobel Laureates, including the six women Peace Laureates of the Nobel Women's Initiative, are raising their voices to call for justice for Mordechai Vanunu, an Israeli man who has been confined within Israel since 1986 for following his conscience and telling the world that Israel had a nuclear weapons program. Israeli security insists Vanunu is a risk to national security, so for more than 22 years the Israeli courts and government have refused to let him leave the country or speak to foreign media. On 8 July Mordechai will return to court to appeal a new 6 months prison sentence for speaking to foreign media."
Has Israel ever threatened to use weapons it won't admit it has? Well, what an interesting question.
Would we know?
"...our tax money."
"...our tax money."
As for the trolls, why not
As for the trolls, why not delete their comments? I can't imagine that just leaving them up would not induce others to respond in kind.
As for what to do in the region, I think that the Israelis need to learn something about 4GW. I use 4GW, as opposed to COIN, because COIN presupposes that you are backing the currently constituted government whereas Israel's current challenges focus on convincing Palestinian society to support a more accommodating position. In this climate Israel should make concessions with a view not towards getting the current Palestinian government to make reciprocal concessions, but (with the specific content of the Israeli concessions would have to be tailored for this rather than just sticking with the typical ones mentioned today aimed at pleasing the revolutionaries) towards convincing the Palestinian people to elect a government that will make reciprocal concessions.
It's a not particularly satisfying suggestion for anyone seeking quick solutions and it would also require changes on the Palestinian side that would allow individual Palestinians who accept such concessions to express such sentiments openly and for parties to run for office based on working from those concessions. However, it does get rid of the problem of the parties asking "Why should I make a concession to (Netanyahu/Abbas) when he did xxx?" because the concessions would not be directed at the elites making their actions irrelevant.
Margaret: Why do you think
Margaret:
Why do you think Israel's nuclear program is relevant to this blog? Unless there is some connection between Israel's nukes and the strategy of other nations in the region there is no case for it. It is the fact that any mention of anything touching on Israel brings out such comments that causes Ex to avoid the topic.
This goes for plenty of others on the other side.
Fnord:
"But I still find it fascinating that the situation is so extreme that one of the US leading think thanks refuses to even discuss the Israeli/Palestine question, and its impact into greater strategic decisions."
One of the problems with discussing COIN is that whenever the topic is the strategic impact of an action, certain people think that overly strict ROE are just going soft on the enemy while certain other think that overly loose ROE are immorality let loose, the result being a morality discussion that sheds no light on the strategic issues at hand. the Israel/Palestine question puts that phenomenon on steroids. Without some degree of control of the discussion, don't see how it's possible to have such a discussion without it devolving into a discussion of whether Israel's nukes should be treated the same as Iran's as I noted in the earlier part of this comment.
Yes, Margaret, I understand
Yes, Margaret, I understand it is an issue many feel strongly about, but I refuse to be sucked into the blog VORTEX of Israel-Palestine blog commenting. With all due respect, it just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.....
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I do actually think less, not more, world attention might allow for a better solution, but I don't know. I mean, I just don't know.
Take care :)
Completely agree with this
Completely agree with this post! People do go crazy commenting on this issue, and - let's face it folks - the 'comments' section in news sources, blogs and youtube are not going to bring us once step closer to fixing this messy and incredibly emotional topic.
As someone who lives in Jordan and works in the region, I am constantly amazed by the fact that people can become so violently opinionated on this topic without ever having taken the time to talk to people on both sides of the issue and actually taking the time to see what is going on.
Enjoy your time in Israel/Palestine and keep on talking to all sorts of people!
Madhu, with respect, you
Madhu, with respect, you said: "There are other conflicts with greater loss of life and potentially much more dangerous for the world (India-Pakistan.)" Israel's military depends on US aid to carry out its activity. The difference between conflicts such as Iraq, Afghanistan and I-P and the other conflicts that you consider potentially more dangerous for the world is that the first three are funded primarily by the US.
A point worth noting is that the US receives censure from an international community not limited to NATO aligned countries, while including them, for its support of Israel, support which has not been a subject about which much discussion previously has taken place in the US. My experience is that people in the US are not encouraged to "talk to people on both sides of the issue and actually tak[e] the time to see what is going on." but instead are discouraged by the often vociferous response to any attempt to do so. (I generalize from repeated observation of both my experience and that of others.) I would hope to provoke not just your interest but your concern, sufficiently enough for you to investigate further.
Scott: Would you explain why you address your comments to me, rather than to others? I responded to a question from Madhu; Elf introduced the question of nuclear capability. It's interesting that you single out comments by myself and Fnord for criticism.
The comment of 5:14 am is
The comment of 5:14 am is mine.
Atone crazy people.. Not so
Atone crazy people.. Not so bad :)
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