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Exploding Spy Gear!
Building off of yesterday's post on Hizballah and Israel, I need to tell you that the UN in southern Lebanon is complaining the Israelis have placed "spy gear" in southern Lebanon that is now causing suspicious explosions. The only thing cooler than spy gear, I say, is exploding spy gear.
What, though, is "spy gear"? Can you imagine the UNIFIL investigation?
What did you find, Pierre?
Looks like a case of spy gear, Jim.
Isn't UNIFIL busy
Isn't UNIFIL busy investigating the amazing self exploding arms caches south of the Litani River?
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_...
And from the ever effervescent gReAt SaTaN's gf: http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=44597
It is a little distressing
It is a little distressing to hear you use phrases like "taking the gloves off" when describing Israeli options in Lebanon. Especially so given your stated frustration with your enemy-centric critics on the Af-Pak front. You allude to strategic questions, but the reality is the Israelis have no good options in Lebanon and to suggest that some sort of 'restraint' guides their war-making policy there seems a bit off.
While I like your joke about the Israeli Cabinet, the connection is a real one. If the Israelis were to attack GOL targets and Beirut infrastructure, do you really think the Saudis would line up behind the broader Iran effort as they watch billions in investment (and their own government on the Mediterranean) go up in smoke?
All seemed to enjoy taking pot shots at Halutz for his air war or the decision-making process in the Israeli Cabinet, but this is akin to saying that the Americans could also send 500,000 troops into Afghanistan. That's not in the cards, and it has nothing to do with American restraint or not wanting to take the gloves off against the Taliban.
Appreciating some of this may also require that you revisit your characterization of HA's 2006 snatch-and-grab as 'reckless.' Hardly. If anything, HA had the Israeli response pegged right, but did not anticipate an Israeli freak out, which is kind of hard to do in any planning environment.
I would also agree that Israeli deterrence is in good shape, but what took a hit was its model of uber-deterrence, wherein even strategically meaningless acts of resistance were to be met with overwhelming and conclusive response.
Basically, it means that
Basically, it means that Israel is killing of Hezb folks, raking up the revenge-o-meter in order to provoke another conflict, doesnt it? Question: How many targeted assasinations and "accidental munitions blow-ups" would the US be able to tolerate before taking punitive action?
that'd be an important
that'd be an important question, fnord, if hizballah were a sovereign nation or anything, really, but well-organized terrorists. since they're the latter, killing them off is a worthy pursuit, and "raking up the revenge-o-meter" is a rather ancillary "benefit" to even the most cynical mind.
Alex Schindler: I'm somewhat
Alex Schindler:
I'm somewhat in agreement that Hezbollah is not a sovereign nation. I'm not sure they're simply well-organized terrorists, though. Need I remind you that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? I think there are arguments to be made that they're terrorists and have been terrorists - the Beirut bombings, the Beirut kidnappings - but times change, and trite as it sounds, the Hezbollah of yesteryear might not be the same as the Hezbollah of today. My own thinking is that they are nearly a state, but I'm not sure enough about how they operate to make that assertion without self-doubt. (My main questions are, to what extent are they free of Iranian influence, and to what extent can they extract resources, i.e., tax. It's clear they can wage armed conflict, and it's clear - or seems clear - they can provide public goods, even if they lack the recognition of the international community which Fnord seems to hold so dear that they are a state.) So what makes you deem them so simply as "terrorists?"
ADTS
By coincidence, a reminder
By coincidence, a reminder that any spy gear can be exploding spy gear was published today.
My personal favourite bit of
My personal favourite bit of spy gear. Cant beat the old fake rock trick- erm, unless your caught and filmed using it, that is.
The FBI should invest in
The FBI should invest in some spy gear. Looks like they nabbed another Israeli spy.
Over $3 billion per year and they continue to conduct espionage on us. We ask them to stop building settlements and they tell us to fuck off.
Is The Lobby real?
I mean, you started to
I mean, you started to answer for yourself... Beirut bombings and kidnappings. I'd add some of their more global operations to the list, like the Israeli Embassy of Buenos Aires in 92 and AMIA '94. and more recently, katyushas launched over the southern border...
Legitimate "resistance" is a matter of opinion, of course, but hopefully we can agree that it is conducted against militaries and governments, not civilian populations (particularly when it endangers your own unwilling population). I don't think anyone believes Deir Yassin, for comparison, was mere "resistance" by the Irgun and Lehi, whereas various anti-Brit operations can justifiably be considered such.
Hizballah does not distinguish, and thus cannot evade the terrorist label. They can be terrorists one agrees or disagrees with, but removing value judgments still leaves us with a group that routinely targets civilians and stockpiles weapons to continue doing so.
Alex Schindler: Well-argued
Alex Schindler:
Well-argued (seriously).
I would agree, the distinction probably lies in the choice of targets.
And I'm not particularly inclined to defend Hezbollah.
Respectfully
ADTS
Visitor 11:38 My
Visitor 11:38
My understanding of the case is that the person nabbed was *willing* to spy for the Israelis. He was not, however, being "run" as an agent by the Israelis.
Whether the Lobby exists, or what it is, is another matter.
ADTS
A. Schindler: Your use of
A. Schindler: Your use of the premise "terrorist" is silly, and imprecise. The Beirut bombings were clearly targeted military operations, and bear nothing in common with the terrorist-tactics of Al Quaeda Iraq and others who have relied on pure terror. Moreover, Hezballah is, like it or not, part of the government of Lebanon and so a legitimate actor within that stateframework, giving them citizens rights, etc. For a nation not ones own to decide they have the right to "kill and hunt" persons from another nation seems to me to be indicative of yet another case of exceptionalism.
Moreover, I can see no strategic reason to destroy certain Hezb sites when there are so many that the material effects are without impact. It just seems like a willing breach of agreements, and an invitation to escalation. When we know Israel will face a watercrisis next year (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1255694849512&pagename=JPost%...) this seems downright counter-productive, unless they are gearing up for a grab of the Litani.
Fnord conveniantly forgets
Fnord conveniantly forgets Hez terror actions in Buenos Aires and that the organization was founded by the IRG, not by Lebanese
Furthermore Hez participation in the lebanese government makes the state of Lebanon responsible for any action by Hez against israel.
One can assume that such a situation is not perceived to be very satisfactory to a majority of Lebanese.
thanks, ADTS.
thanks, ADTS.
Fnord:
Hizballah legitimacy is disputed by TONS of Lebanese. And taking out terrorists who happen to be politicians too doesn't strike me as unreasonable when they have posed a direct threat to you in the past and constantly threaten, verbally and through (illegal) military stockpiling, to do so again.
"And taking out terrorists
"And taking out terrorists who happen to be politicians too doesn't strike me as unreasonable when they have posed a direct threat to you in the past and constantly threaten, verbally and through (illegal) military stockpiling, to do so again."
What does "politician" mean to you?
Fair enough, Alex. That
Fair enough, Alex. That means that any Lebanese has the legal rights to kill Israeli politicans, given that the Israeli army is breaking agreements and conducting offensive operations of bombings inside Lebanon, doesnt it? I mean, they certainly are stockpiling weapons, threatening and killing Hezb personel, no?
Visitor 10:36 Actually I've
Visitor 10:36
Actually I've met the British embassy /rock guy a few times. Have to say he didnt strike me as being remotely "spy-like", and I've met a couple.... Maybe that means he's the perfect spy of course. Although that seems unlikely given what happened
Alex/Fnord
Regarding the terrorist/ guerrila label, I think you are on the right lines but I would suggest that it is overall patterns of behavior which are important. The vast majority of Hezb's actions since its inception were on military targets, I would have thought. Personally I wouldnt use the term terrorist in regard to them, although I would for virtually every other Arab "militia" group I can think of.
I wouldnt use if for Irgun even though I think they perpertrated a couple of actions at least against civilians... Lehi/Stern gang I think were more civilian-targetting therefore "terrorist".
By the way, can anyone recommend a good book on Israeli war of independence.
Visitor 7.14
I dont think Hzb was formed by Pedasaran, just trained by them. The founders were lebanese shia who broke off from AMAL, I thought.
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