Abu Muqawama: Post
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Traveling
November 13, 2009 | Posted by Abu Muqawama - 6:21pm | 18 Comments
I'll be in California all weekend and will not be blogging. You know what you should do, though? Read this book
Comment by lasvegasreb on November 12, 2009 - 7:56am
Wow. There's this vitriol to Andrew that's out there that, for the life of me, I can't understand.
...
Yeah. Wow! is right. Ever read the New Yorker, "lasvegasredb? There's a good article October 26th on Predator/Reaper/drone strikes and Afghanistan. I was an expert on these two subjects and pushing them as newsworthy before Exum was a regular on Rachel Maddow.
But given the exposure, the "limelight," here is what Exum has to say:
"There's something important about putting your own sons and daughters at risk when you choose to wage a war as a nation. We risk losing that flesh-and-blood investment if we go too far down this road."
Do you understand now ?
Exum is batshit crazy and just loves war. For him, apparently, the Somme would be better if it had included the soldiers' sisters. As long as he can get on TV.
RE: KSM and crew to NYC trial.
References: The Fifth Amendment of the Bill of Rights. Legal principles of Equal Justice under the Law, and the "fruit of the poisoned tree" (evidence obtained illicitly, especially by coercion).
Our choice: we either have to fundamentally alter the rights of defendants in our civilian courts with regard to the limits on the State...or...
Or...
Let them go. On American soil.
So. The people have spoken, and now they must suffer.
I submit they will suffer less from any deeds these 200 men can do than they will if we give the State the Power to torture US Citizens...so...
Let them go.
Congrats. We are experiencing fundamental change.
Oh...
And re the above with KSM skipping out the door...
It's Bush's fault. Of course.
Left wing dogs go barking mad
You do realize the solution that does the LEAST damage to the country is to let them go, right?
From Alan Dershowitz..
"Despite the fact that Mr. Mohammed has confessed to virtually everything, his trial will face daunting challenges, unless he decides to plead guilty, as he tried to do last year when he sent a note to a military judge at Guantanamo. If he changes his mind and decides to fight the charges, he will have powerful legal weapons at his disposal.
Foremost is the reality that he was subjected to torture, both physical and psychological. He was waterboarded, which clearly amounts to torture under the law. It was also reported that, when he was arrested, his young children were apprehended. If this is true, his lawyers will surely insist that the circumstances surrounding the detention of his children, particularly whether they were used as bargaining chips, must be fully developed and exposed. ....
..The bottom line is that current prosecutors will probably have to prove the case against Mr. Mohammed without relying on any statements that resulted from torture, or any evidence that is the fruit of unconstitutional interrogations.
Another daunting obstacle that will be faced by prosecutors will likely be the common defence tactic called “graymail.” Under this variation on blackmail, defence attorneys demand that the government turn over sensitive and classified intelligence information deemed necessary to the defence. If they refuse to do so, the defence moves for dismissal of the indictment. Federal judges are sensitive to the potential abuse of this tactic and will insist that the material that is sought must be relevant to the defence. But if it is relevant, the tactic can be extremely effective. ..
...change of venue.."
The Press can't cover for your guy forever.
Personally I find it interesting that the solution to such great 'injustice' of holding mass murderers indefinitely is putting on show trials whose results will never be recognized if for some stupid reason they actually result in an acquittal.
I bow to my moral overlords (laugh).
@ Visitor 2:09:
If you think Mr. Mohammed can only receive a show trial in this country, if you are a citizen I would invite you to begin searching for another country to emigrate to. A lot of people work very hard in the United States to ensure that all manner of unsavory characters accused of crimes more tangibly despicable than Mr. Mohammed's in fact receive a fair trial, and deserve more than your scorn, as you will find out if you are ever unfortunate enough to find yourself in the defendant's seat.
When I was doing my EMT hospital overnighter, I witnessed an emergency impacted bowel excavation (from a distance, happily) as well as an intubation and stomach pumping of an 0.5 BAL homeless drunk (from a few inches away, helping hold his head down - his eyes popped open when the tube went down, that's for sure)...
In the end, the patients were better off for their treatments, not that they liked it at the time. What does that have to do with a KSM trial and the neocons and their allies? Dunno - it just came to mind.
A few problems:
1) Torture by CIA private contractors at the behest of some dipshit cabal, not too hard to guess the membership. If the FBI were getting everything from these guys, why send in the CIA? Most probable answer would be to get them to confess to being aided by Saddam. TImeframe: Fall 2002. Level of interest in securing Afghanistan at that time: Low at best.
2) Tony Blair is to face an inquiry into his decisions regarding supporting Cheney's little adventure in Iraq, as well as any knowledge he may have had of deliberately generated false reports on Iraqi WMD potentials. While none of this offers KSM & Co. a chance to get off the hook, it sort of draws the spotlight in on that timeframe, the months leading up to Operation Iraqi Liberation, whoops, chuckle, Freedom I mean.
3) The al-Qahtani problem...
"Attorney General Eric Holder's announcement this morning that five accused 9/11 conspirators held at Guantanamo will be tried in civilian court in New York didn't deal with one of the Obama administration's most difficult problems, what to do with Mohammed al Qahtani, a sixth conspirator who once faced military commission charges, but whose treatment was so bad at Guantanamo that the Pentagon's so-called convening authority, Susan Crawford, refused to let the case go forward."
This problem has two parts, at least. First, a witness who stutters and trembles and shakes in court, gnaws on his hands, whatever - that's not so good. Too much torture leads to that. Second, he apparently fingered 30 other detainees under torture as "Al Qaeda bodyguards" or something like that - and their lawyers are demanding those 30 be released.
This all stems from that idiotic effort by the Office of Special Plans to use Cold War forced confession tactics as part of their propaganda plot to whip up public support for Iraq. Prosecutorial misconduct for political purposes... Even worse, they neglected Afghanistan and allowed the Taliban & OBL to gain more ground in the west and north - and the corrupt contracting deals didn't help much either.
Regardless, there's no shortage of reliable evidence against KSM... but once this trial is over, who should go on trial next? Maybe the Hague would be the best venue...
@ Visitor 244,
So tell me how we can convict them without changing our laws just for them? None of this is admissible. This will just be a circus for KSM to spit hate and mock us, and the very family members who will be looking at them. And if we actually apply our sacred laws? They should walk. Today. What was wrong with military tribunals? Nuremburg was a military tribunal. This was not thought through, and it's totally new ground.
What we can expect at trial
BTW --"crimes more tangibly despicable than Mr. Mohammed'" Who? I can't think of anyone who got a civilian trial who was worse.
===============
@ G.D,
Thanks for basically admitting you hate Bush more than you hate KSM and his pals, and also that you are willing to @ss to mouth fuk America because you are pissed about Iraq, or torture, or whoever...
Because that's what the Libs, this "administration" and the terrorist defense lawyer A.G Holder are basically doing to America on behalf of their true clients, the Oedipal raging Left and their new BFF's - A.Q.
The one silver lining in this black cloud - when the people see what a obscene circus this is going to be, it will discredit the notion of "International Law", the Hague and the entire International Left's agenda forever.
Will the prosecution/defense be able to find a fair jury in Manhattan, the same place where the accused allegedly killed almost 3000 people? Change of venue possible?
OJ Simpson received a change of venue so that the jury pool was more diverse. How did that work out?
Maybe KSM lawyers will ask for a change of venue to Dearborn or Detroit, Michigan. Sure to get a very diverse jury there.
Your blog seems to have a problem with my IP address.
I haven't been able to post here for a week as every comment times out. On the other hand, 7 different anonymous proxies like this one seem to have no problem whatsoever.
That's a little odd/lame.
A terrorism trial's myths
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/13/AR200911...
Recall that KSM was captured, detained and tortured after he confessed and bragged about the 9/11 attacks on TV. Likewise, if there's any indication that he intends to contest his guilt, this must have got lost somewhere amongst the many concurring indicators that he's jumping at the chance to plead guilty.
Exum = batshit crazy Zionist member of Hezbollah who loves Israel and supports the Taliban and adores Obama and loves war and hates America and wants more than anything to be on TV. Did I leave anything out?
Elf the Vigilante:
Are you a judge, lawyer, or other legal professional involved in the case? Then I don't think you have any actual idea what evidence in the case is admissible or not. Neither does Alan Dershowitz, his legal pedigree notwithstanding. It's true that there will be a fight over what is admissible and what isn't: but there usually is. Have you even read Ex Parte Quirin or Silverthorne Lumber, by the way? Are you familiar with the exceptions to the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine? Do you know how evidence otherwise illegally obtained and inadmissible can be rehabilitated? You don't even know what evidence the prosecution intends to present against him. You don't know their theory of the case, and you haven't participated in the discovery process. So you're just speculating.
I did say "tangibly despicable". Mr. Mohammed's main role was as a planner. I've provided legal support to death penalty cases where the facts were incredibly personal and particularized to the defendant. I've seen cases where the defendant tried to disrupt the proceedings, and it hasn't affected the proceedings. As for letting them "walk", I'm not sure you've thought that all the way through. Walk where? Would Kuwait take him back? Would Indonesia or Australia have a legal claim against him? The US judicial system has soaked up cases far more difficult than this one without falling apart. But, as the first sergeant said, we'll see, sir.
@ 922 Visitor,
Thank you for being Civil, I will do my best to return favor while being direct.
"Are you a judge, lawyer, or other legal professional involved in the case?"
No, and none should be, certainly not outside the military. I've been making this point for years, including here. This was accepted practice for over 200 years...and now...and now...we are in new territory. <===Do you wish to contest this?
I really don't care about legal arguments, they have no place here..the SCOTUS bulldozed it's way in here without a roadmap and breaking all precedents, unless you want to point me towards some where POW's or persons detained in war were placed for trial in civil court. How'd that work out?
This is madness. Sorry, you are in the grip of a pathology.
And BTW how do you get a conviction, apply the constitution to KSM and the US Citizen equally, and not degrade the rights of the US citizen to that of an enemy at war (fighting out of uniform no less)?
How do you keep the IRS from waterboarding me over my return?
Oh and while were at it...do we have to Mirandize people captured in a war zone? What if they don't understand it when we read it from the card?
Then there's chain of custody issues.
Now I watched farces like this play out in Iraq all the time (farces related to bringing the courts to a battlefield). It usually ends with them being released.
Mark my words. You have taken the Law onto the Battlefield. You have already lost the battle, now you shall lose your laws.
More on the LOL er.. I mean Law...
Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942), is a Supreme Court of the United States case that upheld the jurisdiction of a United States military tribunal over the trial of several Operation Pastorius German saboteurs in the United States. Quirin has been cited as a precedent for the trial by military commission of any unlawful combatant against the United States.
OK, well that would seem relevant
"SILVERTHORNE LUMBER CO., INC. V. UNITED STATES, 251 U. S. 385 (1920)"
4th Ammendment Case ?? A 1920's Lumberjack Case is relevant to KSM Trial? How? This is the USSR at the end, I remember now how dysfunctional it was.
What the hell is going on in this post? Exum says he is gone for a few days, recommends a book about the financial crisis, and then there are a bunch of random and angry posts about Khalid Sheik Muhammad? Were a bunch of posts deleted? There's no context any more, and some what's-bad-about-the-internet anonymous ranting. I say delete stuff, if there is a moderator here.
This pisses me off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9lkmd-mMJ0&feature=popt00us03
@ HUS pissed off.
OK. I made that happen from up here. Since you're such a scrooge, you will get the lead paint toys for XMAS.
From China. Made by Xmasistan slaves in competitive pay factories.
@ Dennis,
Come here often.
Meanwhile, for the Holidays, TNR says get ready for 3d Intifada. For internal Pal political reasons.
http://www.tnr.com/article/the-third-intifada
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