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Pakistan News Update - US conducted raids into FATA
US Special Forces have conducted multiple raids into Pakistani territory, local daily The Nation reported today in a front-page article that was basically just quoting an earlier Guardian story.
One previous US raid that occurred in 2008 was already known about. And when it happened, there was serious concern as to whether such actions by the Americans might lead to the breakdown of the Pakistani army. One respected London-based Pakistan academic said if American troops kept crossing into Pakistani territory he could envisage a situation where Pakistani commanders would lose control over soldiers who would want to fight the incursions.
That might explain this comment:
"The Pakistanis were kept entirely in the dark about it. It was one of those things we wouldn't confirm officially with them," said the source, who had detailed knowledge of the operations."
Read the original Guardian story here.
Change we can believe in...
Change we can believe in... Oh Yes.
Hi Londonstani, I've posted
Hi Londonstani,
I've posted a blog entry with 4 questions in relation to this Guardian piece:
1. Is this actually news? Should we be surprised by this report?
2. Is there anything wrong with operations like these?
3. How come a NATO source tells us about this?
4. What's changed?
You may want to read it at : http://re-orient.blogspot.com/2009/12/afpak-tales.html
Cheers,
RE: Orient
"...The aggressive American
"...The aggressive American approach to Balochistan contrasts with the low-key British tone, despite the fact Balochistan lies across the border from Helmand, where 9,000 British troops are fighting the Taliban..."
That's because we have fucking amateurs who love to talk to the Press, and the Brits have Low Key Professionals. They also have people who've been in Government, as opposed to people who've never had a job outside of academe or Law Firms. Being in Charge of the American Government is their first real responsibility and it shows from the top down.
In answer to RE:Orient query 3: Because NATO is becoming the new UN, or at least Europe is...
Well, if the Pakistani army
Well, if the Pakistani army rents asunder over US raids into Pakistani territory then it'll be a huge headache for absolutely everyone. The army's command and control is about the only thing that works here. And inspite of the problems between the US and Pak army people, the Pak army brass actually does seem to cooperate and knows why it should. The politicians, on the other hand, wouldnt be able to on their own. And public opinion just plain doesnt want to. The NATO source could still be US. Or possibly UK, as I detect a certain UK-centric smugness. What's changed? In terms of why do we get to know this now? Good question. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess.This would not be happening
This would not be happening it were not for the World Trade Center.
All things considered, the Americans are showing a lot of constraint and being scorned for it.
Would you rather the US take the Taliban approach. Dial in the coordinates of major Islamic cities. Nationalize all of the investments of the Islamic worlds. Eject all Muslims from our lands and drag the ones that will not leave behind our pick-up trucks....................?
Think the laces on the gloves were loosened a tiny bit. Wait to see what happens when Pak nukes come under Taliban control.
Not saying it is right or wrong, just what did you expect to happen? The west to send you thanks and flowers?
Read the writting on the wall, it can get worse. All we really want is Al Qaeda. Longer this goes on, the more we will get into your business and the more people are going to die. Why? Feeling under the thumb of the west? Look what the Taliban does to your own people. Who is worse?
Have your people look at what is happening in Iraq....they are their own government....the US is trying to get the heck out. We paid a trillion dollars just so your peoples could have a nice place to live. Please burn our flag again........Why keep pulling us back in.......who gains from this?
. One respected London-based
.
One respected London-based Pakistan academic said if American troops kept crossing into Pakistani territory he could envisage a situation where Pakistani commanders would lose control over soldiers who would want to fight the incursions.
I'm writing a piece on situations where soldiers disobey orders because they consider themselves under a higher command. So -- from the POV of the soldiers, would that be a purely nationalist or a religiously sanctioned response? Would it, in their terms, fall into the category of jihad?
Thank you Mr Zak. And if I
Thank you Mr Zak.
And if I may add, it's not just that we want Al Qaeda.
It's that we MUST HAVE THEM. This would be true of any US President, and for that matter any UK PM at this point.
First Rule of Fight Club is me, BTW. So yes I deplore all this business being in the papers.
The source of course could be US, but that's doubtful...
Look, if Pakistan hadn't created Frankenstein then lost control of it (we did not create AQ. We didn't even create the Mujahadeen. We just armed the latter) then we wouldn't be talking about this issue.
You can't let your territory however tenuous your grip be used as a staging area for raids then expect it to remain sovereign. However is it quite certain that if the Pakistani military and society at large made a Supreme Effort or at least a unified one these idiots could not be expelled? Londonstani would know better than us. A few tens of thousands can overwhelm 170 million?
Hipbone. Are you going to
Hipbone. Are you going to include in your article a paragraph that what you're writting could increase the body count?
There is a responsibility in every job. Ever wonder why the mitlitary does not want journalists around, it is a hard enough job.
. Are you going to include
.
Are you going to include in your article a paragraph that what you're writting could increase the body count?
It won't.
A
A propos...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFNTRaXRiI
Re elf: A few tens of
Re elf: A few tens of thousands can overwhelm 170 million?
It is my impression that, in the era of British Raj, the ratio of British vs. Indians was very similar, about 80 thousand to 400 million. So it is feasible in that part of the world - at least temporarily. Exploit the weaknesses, deepen the rifts between powerful princes and tribes, then rule them all.
(And the British were much more restrained than the Taliban, when it comes to wanton beheading, though no angels either).
Happy Holidays (really).
Happy Holidays (really).
Thank you Marian K. True that.
Charles Cameron on disobey POV....well we can't all be utterly irresponsible shit stirring troublemakers...or in other words, the media. A soldier who disobeys for "conscience" is taking many lives in his hands beginning with his own.
Visitor- he could give a sh!t if it didn't get across. Ever see the scene in Hamburger Hill where the SGT tells the reporter "you probably don't even do your own f*cking"? Remember the kid in school who used to start fights between two other kids then walk away? Recall Iago? That's the media. They'd be criminals, they just don't have the balls. [no offense to Pakistani and other actual journalists].
And we're right not to want to have them around.
What I wonder is the act of conscience that prompts a Pakistani soldier to embrace the Muslim equivalent of the Khmer Rouge? Other than having been brainwashed himself.
The Pakistani army is
The Pakistani army is unbelievable, they wont let go of the idea that India is about to pounce like the monster in the closet and now their more worried about a couple dozen US commandos on a snatch and grab than they are about the thousand or so guys blowing up Army HQ's and Mosques? Yes, US incursions are a violation of national sovereignty and its really a questionable (at best) thing for us to do but from all of these reports its not like they're engaging the Pakistani Army.
Elf the goal of journalism
Elf the goal of journalism is to inform the public and keep the people in power honest. I will admit that the media has become a corporate entity that is no longer dispassionate and aligns itself with whoever it has to to get fed. They have also become the mouthpieces for those with agendas beyond simply telling the world whats happening, i.e. Fox News, MSNBC etc. Its one thing to hate what the media has become but I wouldn't hate them for what should be a honest and noble intent.
NickP, Happy Holidays.
NickP,
Happy Holidays.
Yes, they can and often do perform those goals.
I don't hate them for existing, and I am willing to tolerate their barbs, etc. I also am not against partisan media at all...as long as it is basically declared. The myth of objectivity - is that even possible - wears thin when purported by the clearly partisan. But even that can be borne. It's human nature after all.
But I've had it with the people who want to rather transparently seek to befriend in order to betray, very often sanctimoniously claiming freedom of the press while they trespass beyond it. War is not just another matter before the legislature or public, in particular when you are targeted for atrocity and genocide. I may be misjudging the entity rebuked above...but I doubt it. Don't think visitor has him wrong either. Such people have taken a side (usually against their own by default) then hide behind the protections provided by our sacrifice. Our thoroughly bitch-whipped Pols and Generals let it happen, and let us be tossed to the wolves or suffer higher causalities in fruitless attempts at appeasing the beast.
Act of conscience. What conscience? LOL.
Nationalist or religiously sanctioned? It's an Army with it's own country, and as far as religious sanction...yeah. Also can get sanction for rape, robbery, torture, murder. From jump street.
Incursions into other
Incursions into other people’s territory are as old as war. Everybody does it. The only time people get upset is when it’s their territory that is being trespassed on. Take Pakistan, for example. Pakistani regular army units were in Afghanistan fighting with the Taliban in 2001. Several thousand Pakistani soldiers were there in organized formations. And this was on top of the Pakistani volunteers that were fighting on behalf of the Taliban. There were so many Pakistani army personnel in Afghanistan that special “secret” evacuation flights had to be organized after the Northern Alliance won so that Pakistan wouldn’t be embarrassed. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ISI still has people in Afghanistan doing more than simply collecting intelligence. Leave aside the Pakistani volunteers; did anyone of consequence in Pakistan get publicly upset about their soldiers fighting on Afghan territory on behalf of insurgents in an Afghan civil war? Did anyone in authority in Pakistan publicly claim that inserting large regular army formations into another country in support of an insurgency might just possibly be considered an act of war by the international community? Well, no. Of course not.
The problem for Pakistan is that it gives aid, comfort and hospitality to these Afghan, Uzbek, Uighur, Kashmiri and other insurgent groups without having the ability to either effectively protect them from incursions or cause them to cease operations on its territory. In other words, it lacks either the ability to exercise sovereignty over its own territory or the desire to do so. I understand that this places the Army and civilian leadership in an awkward position — a very awkward position — but it is, for the most part, a position of their own making; one, in fact, that is the result of deliberate policy decisions by every single Pakistani administration since at least the early 1980s.
The United States benefits a great deal from its relationship with Pakistan and should do what it can to support the Pakistani government so long as it doesn’t conflict with U.S. vital interests. One of these interests is supporting the Afghan government in its fight against the Taliban and another is avoiding ISAF casualties. Pakistan has repeatedly been asked to exercise its sovereignty and either control or eject these groups. It has repeatedly refused to do so and, in fact, continues to support many of them with material, advice and intelligence. Someone, somewhere, has concluded that under the circumstances, these US interests are more important than not upsetting Pakistanis. I hope that they’re right but fear that they are not.
http://www.videocure.com/vide
http://www.videocure.com/video/100730.html
Maybe that is the
Maybe that is the answer.
Pull all US aid to AFPAK and let India have them. Let the PAKs think of the good ole days when the US use to come trespassing. Only one country to worry about afterwards.
US benefits from PAK? Guess it is nice to have a friendly nation in the area, but the US is friendly with India and it is only a sortie away. US pays well for that friendship. For all the aid dollars that go into PAK, I think they are getting the better end of the deal. Think half of PAK is trying to get to the US on H1B's. The PAKs don't want to be there either from the sound of it.
When the French gave the US a hard time leading up to the Iraq war, the US just almost got out the shovels and started to bring home the dead US WW2 soldiers buried in the only ground that the US keeped for the effort. Guess the US trespassed in France too. Time for the US to go home and pull in the "welcome mat". Let folks protect and fund themselves if they don't like the US.
Can't say I am too surprised
Can't say I am too surprised about these raids. I would actually be more surprised if US troops were completely respectful of Pakistan's sovereignty while US drones regularly violated it. In other words, once the US decides that Pakistan's borders need not be respected by unmanned machines, the policy can easily shift to allow for other means.
New blog on Pakistan/Afghanistan issues:
http://pakaf.wordpress.com/
Afghan Taliban Release New
Afghan Taliban Release New Video of American POW Pvt. Bowe Bergdahl on Christmas Day
Can we release some
Can we release some offensive Abu Gharib party videos for Eid? Since they wanna spoil our Christmas with that poor Private and blowing up what's left of Detroit.
Hello. Ur welcome! Keep me
Hello.
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Pakistan news update us
Pakistan news update us conducted raids fata.. May I repost it? :)
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