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Always with the negative waves, Moriarty ... Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
I have not seen the Hurt Locker. My only opinion of the director, Katherine Bigelow, is based on Point Break, which we can all agree is the greatest movie ever featuring Keanu Reeves shooting a gun up in the air while screaming. But I do not understand my fellow Iraq veterans complaining the Hurt Locker isn't realistic enough. When did war movies suddenly have to be realistic? Did Blackhawk Down start this? Was it the bank robbery scene in Heat? The reason I say this is that one of my best childhood friends was walking through a Walgreens in Nashville, passed a $9 DVD Double Feature of Kelly's Heroes and the Dirty Dozen and immediately thought, correctly, "Oh, man, this would make Ex's year if I bought this and sent it to him." Now there is very little that is realistic about either movie, but c'mon, they are surely two of the greatest war movies ever. And they both star Telly Savalas and Donald Sutherland, the latter of whom is high as a kite in both.
A lot of us have deployed to war and been in a few firefights, but surely we can all appreciate the tripped-out genius of this opening scene, right?
Oh, man, this is another classic scene.
"A Sherman tank can give you
"A Sherman tank can give you a very nice edge."
"I only ride them. I don't know what makes them work."
Two of the most important lessons a young cavalry officer will ever learn anywhere.
Ha! I should have known
Ha! I should have known Oddball was your hero.Frankly, the accuracy of war
Frankly, the accuracy of war movies has been in a steep decline ever since the hyper-realistic film debut of Audie Murphy in "To Hell and Back."
You really are stuck in
You really are stuck in Post-Modernism
Just watched "Hurt Locker" -
Just watched "Hurt Locker" - entertaining? Yes. Realistic? Not even to someone like me who's been out of the military since the Wall came down. That said, you're bang on - what's wrong with being entertained?
Also, it's "negative waves" from the Donald Sutherland line to Gavin McLeod. :)
Why is Heat's bank robbery
Why is Heat's bank robbery scene in that list? I read it was pretty realistic, including Val Kilmer's tactical reloads.
another huge Kelly's Heroes
another huge Kelly's Heroes fan here, and a former Cavalry officer who owes everything he knows about tanks to Oddball.
General Colt: "Everyone's fighting! They even got the grave diggers with them!"
My personal distaste for "The Hurt Locker" resides in how it tries so hard to come across as realistic, rather than being honest with its fiction, a la "Kelly's Heroes" and "The Dirty Dozen." It banks its inherent appeal on perceived realism, hence the outcry.
Adding me as another
Adding me as another Oddball-worshiping cavalrymen - AM is missing the point.
Kelly's Heroes, though a farce, is extremely well done militarily. The tanks are right (vismoded T-34's for the Germans) the weapons and gear are right, and the soldiers act like soldiers for the most part. (Oddball excepted). The story is an action/satire/comedy, but it's much better done militarily than say - "The Battle of the Bulge" or "Patton" from the same era, which use M46’s, M48’s and even a Winnebago as period props.
I haven't seen the Hurt Locker, but if you are telling a morality tale/serious film representing "what it's like" in Iraq, you should get the details right.
Niel
The Killing
The Killing Fields
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z1sj7gzpCk
I'd have to say this is the most realistic war movie I've seen. It's depressing, cruel and mind blowing....the kids from Gen Y and X probably would hate it because it's a downer...heartbreaking and F_*ked up. Through the eyes of someone who's not in the military. If war movies weren't entertaining and war video games weren't realistic, the US military would lose 1/2 of it's recruits, before they signed on the dotted line.
Interesting fact: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 video games- the most realistic first person shooter video game ever produced- according to recent figures from Activision, Modern Warfare 2 sold approximately 4.7 million units in both the United States and the UK in the first 24 hours of its release. The total revenue from first day sales in the U.S. and the UK was $310 million, making Modern Warfare 2 the biggest entertainment launch in history. After five days of sales, the game had earned revenue figures of $550 million worldwide. As of January 18, 2010, it has taken over $1 billion in sales.
1 Billion in sales. Telly Savalas and Donald Sutherland could never be entertaining enough to make that much money...and do it in less than 6 months. People do want realistic...but they want it in their video games, so they can control it...they want to participate in an exciting story unfolding. They can be the hero and make life and death decisions, without any repercussions or consequences.
When it comes to war movies - entertainment is always better, because reality is too grim and depressing.
F-ed up part is.... Activision made a Billion Dollars, they have a movie deal brewing and the next line of recruits is getting ready to graduate from our American high schools this year, thinking they want to be the next Private First Class Joseph Allen, a Ranger stationed in Afghanistan.
This game was the best recruiting tool the Marine Corps and Army has ever had to date and the US Government didn't have to spend any money.
Its been all down hill since
Its been all down hill since this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch#playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=CksrDsr3...
I was a green Lt stationed
I was a green Lt stationed in Germany working in a Simulation Center for one of the exercise before REFORGER. The V Corps Commander came by with his retinue and asked me what I thought of the then new simulation software. Being that green Lt I really thought he wanted to know my opinion and I started to give it in great detail only to notice that he had already turned away. I immediately thought of Donald Sutherland in the Dirty Dozen. "Never heard of it"
I also thought that "Three Kings" was the most unrealistic piece of crap I had ever seen until I deployed to Afghanistan in 01-02 and found out if you had a beard, photographers vest and drove a Toyota Hi-lux you could damn near do anything you wanted to.
Paul Rieckhoff had an
Paul Rieckhoff had an interesting quote about how movies about Iraq will ultimately largely form how the public thinks about the war. I'm not sure if that's true or just one of those things that sounds true, but it's something to keep in mind.
lol, anyone ever done some
lol, anyone ever done some quantified research as o ow much Oddball lowered the US dicipline in Nam? Hes so stoned, its amazing.
As someone who leads a weird
As someone who leads a weird double life as Sydney based actor and student of security and CT I can tell you one thing, I didn't get into the acting game for realism. Sure its nice once in a while but I got into it for the chance to ride bare butt naked down a mountain side swing an axe and screaming something about the English being bastards.
As great as the hyper realistic movies can be trust me they do not sell, and if they don't sell they don't get made. As Kratos has said if its ain't entertaining its just bloody grim.
How come that jeep didn't
How come that jeep didn't roll over?
Best intro to a war
Best intro to a war movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d0d6qgsvTw
Interesting. Hope the
Interesting. Hope the historians pick up on the beat of technology and troll youtube to grab a moment of our culture. Blackhawk down was close, had a lot of special effects and lot of involvement from military on the technicals to make it real. There were details left out. Party with Team 6 in Vegas and you will see Elvis.
AM can do there own movie. We can call it "Down Time".
There is a lot of footage out there just waiting to be put together. From the Air Force and Navy. You have to remember that the Navy ships are now coed. The Army has women, but the don't know what to do with them. Then there is a little miss placed humor. Have to say that without music, these Marines put on a good show singing "My Girl". No war movie is good without a reflective moment.
For the end and to add the realism that today's culture wants we can add a thought to remember.
Guys enjoy the show. It is hard to get through the ending with a dry eye. Lets not forget.
Kratos, the US Army already
Kratos, the US Army already has its own FPS game/recruiting tool (America's Army 3 being the newest incarnation, just out). For free.
Because you don't need to
Because you don't need to add anything to war to make it exciting. It is exciting just as it is.
And it fundamentally skews people's perceptions. The military doesn't disarm bombs, it blows them up by putting C4. I know this, cause you wrote about it in "This Man's Army" probably the best scene in that book. Why didn't Bigelow depict that, not bomb disarming?
Also, brings up the point, why are films so over-the-top, like Hurt Locker and Inglorious Basterds, while all the books on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have to be memoirs?
Just read a great piece on
Just read a great piece on this in the NYTimes:
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/01/essay-15/
I understand the argument that Ms. Bigelow and her team should be applauded for tackling certain issues and bringing the war home to Americans. Yet with so many scenes and details untrue, the actual war in Iraq becomes merely a dramatic jumping off point for the filmmakers.
E.O.D. teams are highly specialized. They do not fire sniper rifles, clear buildings full of insurgents, single-handedly engage a squad of enemy combatants or drive the streets of Iraq alone. What they do in reality is amazing enough: one of the most nerve-wracking and dangerous jobs on earth. It is done a disservice by this degree of dramatization.
When a filmmaker gets that many details wrong, it’s hard to believe she got the war right. “The Hurt Locker” is not a drama about a make-believe event. This is a movie about an ongoing war that has affected millions, in which 100,000 Americans are still serving. It deserves a minimal degree of historical accuracy and attention to detail.
Does America's Army 3 come
Does America's Army 3 come with the Magnavox Odyssey or Commodore 64?
The Army has gotten so pathetic at recruiting, that it decided to make it's own video-games?
True waste of tax-payer dollars.
Speaking about recruiting
Speaking about recruiting videos, Russian Ground Forces - Сухопутные войска Российской Федерации uses this video to hypnotize unsuspecting individuals, to get them to sign on the dotted line.
I believe David Lynch had something to do with it, there just aren't any midgets. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM
What I personally liked
What I personally liked about "Hurt Locker" was the way they depicted the lone wolf behavior of this EOD guy. His ignorance towards rules doesn't help anybody, and instead, one of his team members is being shot. That's rather unsual for such a movie, isn't it?
So I read this and think
So I read this and think what they hay, let's use the dang search function on the Marine Corps Gazette to see how happy the Green Machine was when Full Metal Jacket came out. You know, the movie that every Marine has seen like 10 million times now?
Well looky here from Leatherneck September 1987.......
Lee Ermey is a bit concerned about Marine Corps reaction to his role as a profane drill instructor, who is not above slapping or punching a recruit for effect.
At a recent press conference in Kansas City, Mo., he spent most of the time explaining his portrayal.
"In 1967, Marine Corps recruit training was cut from 12 to eight weeks and DIs were pushed into an accelerated mode of training. We worked 100-hour weeks with oversized platoons. So imagine working with twice as many people, in less time, with the certainty of combat around the corner. It was not an easy job," he emphasized.
For the first part of the film, the action centers on Ermey's character, drill instructor GySgt Hartman, and his attempts to "square away" an overweight and clumsy recruit, whom Hartman nicknamed "Gomer Pyle." A quick, sharp slap, to help the hapless private distinguish between left and right, and a barrage of verbal abuse are some of the techniques he uses to get the recruit's attention.
Ermey said GySgt Hartman's actions are understandable because a DI just didn't have time to explain everything to one private at a time. However, he emphasized that his character's abusive behavior could never be justifiable.
"Occasionally a true-life Hartman would come along. Hartman was based on several real mean characters I knew, all rolled into one. But you've got to know that the U.S. Marine Corps has never, and will never, condone the abuse of recruits, whatsoever."
...........
After the conference, Ermey called a small group of past and present Marines over to the side, to sign autographs and to talk more about his role in the film.
"We Marines get a bad rap, sometimes, and it makes us sensitive. Have you ever noticed that whenever a former Marine commits a crime, the headlines scream, 'Ex-Marine goes berserk'? So, I almost want to apologize to the Commandant for doing anything that seems like I'm stepping on the toes of my beloved Corps. But Stanley Kubrick (the director) came to me asking for realism and that's what I had to give him! I couldn't say that these things didn't happen, because they did!"
If Lee Ermey was looking for some form of forgiveness from his fellow Marines, he found it-in a way. One Vietnam veteran, who had fought in Hue (the battle partially depicted in the film), asked Ermey for his autograph and told him that he was going to take his son to see the movie for the third time. The vet added, however, that it "bugged" him to see the Marines in the movie wearing Army flak jackets. Ermey smiled at this, probably thinking that if this was the most serious complaint from a Marine who was actually there, then his portrayal of a profane GySgt Hartman must be forgiven.
And of course there was the official USMC "aversion" to Avatar. I think they were just pissed because a (former)Corporal had better judgment, ethics and character than the (former) colonel/SgtMaj. We all know that never happens in real life.
You could go crazy trying to read every technical glitch, tactical screwup, and watching for every open rifle ejecter port, and its not even limited to grunts, as fun a movie as A Few Good Men is, the whole last scene is one running objection, no freaking miltary courtroom would let that rambling go on, but it's great fare and makes great theater. Of course I refuse to watch it again so I just disapproved my whole post.
Hurt Locker was a human interest story, not a training film. There are plenty, plenty of people over the last almost 9 years who have fled the fear at war, to the banal responsibilities at home, only to head back again where you can touch, smell and taste what you are doing. On that point it suceeded IMO.
I am impressed by the
I am impressed by the director who thought "Hmm. A script about bomb disposal in Iraq? Yeah, OK, but it doesn't sound exciting and tense enough. Let's put in a bit of countersniping (800m kills with an AK-47? Nice) and some OBUA, and it'll need a cute kid too. Yeah, more like it." If they'd let her have another six months making it, it would probably have a thousand elephants.
Asking hollywood to produce
Asking hollywood to produce a completly accurate film on any subject (much less war) is like asking congress to responsibly spend tax money. Not gonna happen.
I've always thought this was
I've always thought this was fairly accurate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch#playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=m7ur7lbT...
Interesting.... If sales
Interesting....
If sales were the only metric which copy of "IED Hunter" do you think would be successful....and why?
this
or
this
Always liked the old Sea Hunt series. The buying public has changed a lot since the Sea Hunt days. Now we have reality TV shows. Sometimes I think we have gone backwards not forwards.
Artists have always been edgy to differentiate their work. I hoping for the day that "normal" is the new edgy. Guess that is my normal and not Taratino's. Personally, if we could take Stanley Kubrick and Quentin Taratino(sorry AM, born in Tennessee) out of the human gene pool we would not be missing much. Consider A Clockwork Orange and Hell Ride . Think monkeys could write those scripts.....think they both spent their lives high as a kite.
We didn't get realistic
We didn't get realistic movies about Vietnam until several years after the last troops left Saigon - why does anyone think it'll be any different this time?
Here's a must-see: Behind the Scenes at the filming of Rambo III - Oh, so good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OOd5iSBqEg
"This time though, life won't be imitating art. The real-life Soviets say they're pulling out of Afghanistan this year - but Sly may not let a little thing like that stand in the way of Rambo 4. There's always the Persian Gulf!" - c. 1988
Wow, someone was prescient. Don't miss the classic TV hairstyles of the 80's...
Amazingly enough, the film was shot in Israel, Arizona and Thailand. Great Stallone quote: "It just doesn't sound right: death, mayhem, truth, genocide - shot in Las Vegas... it just doesn't have a ring of realism to it."
Hurt Locker was as noted a
Hurt Locker was as noted a human interest piece, in particular the adrenaline junkie part, and showing the cat and mouse games we went through with the Iraqi's.
A complicated topic.
A complicated topic. Authenticity in art, I mean. What is authenticity in the realm of film anyway? Getting certain details as correct as possible? Or emotional, narrative, you-name-it authenticity?
I guess it all depends on what the artist wants to do, convey, and achieve. And you can't control the audience reaction after the fact. Different audiences will respond differently. All obvious stuff. Likely disconcerting to some veterans given the small numbers who have actually experienced the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars in, like, real life. I guess I'd be worried, too, that the general public think it's all completely correct and real and stuff. I asked that question on a different blog, actually. I thought it was reviewed as the most "real" of the Iraq War movies - well, I ain't never been in the military - and was told, gently, by someone that, "no, it's not real," or something to that effect.
I guess what I am really trying to say is that Point Break IS TOO great art, haters.
It is obvious that the Hurt
It is obvious that the Hurt Locker is striving to be the definitive movie of the Iraq war. Obviously, that is a low bar, but still. But to compare it to the Dirty Dozen or Kelly's Heroes is absurd, Abu M. Those movies were going for the comedic angle. Hurt Locker is definitely not. That is why it deserves the criticism it has gotten from OIF veterans.
@Madhu, See my above
@Madhu,
See my above comments on adrenaline junky and cat and mouse. It's real in that way.
Zak - the Crocodile link was classic.
I've got to say Elf, you hit
I've got to say Elf, you hit the nail on the head dude.
As far as entertainment goes- Katherine Bigelow did a good job with the movie and the budget she had. She stated in an interview, that the first movie she saw that inspired her to direct, was the movie The Wild Bunch (1969). Watch the movie directed by Sam Peckinpah and you will see why. Additionally, I can sense a lot of chauvinistic and machismo statements made in the posts above, to include you AM, which I never imagined I would read.
With that, I'll say that all the other added parts to the movie like - the sniper scene, hunting down insurgents in town at night and the continued diffusion of bombs - rather than detonation in place - were this character's "adrenaline" seeking activities. Now everyone can say- "this isn't what happens in real war" or "this isn't what would happen in real life", but I challenge you to say that it couldn't happen.
Why would I say such a thing? Because I have seen and know many individuals in combat who have sough adrenaline seeking activities to satisfy their own needs. Many of these same people were sent home, received court martial or were criminally prosecuted.
Some examples- A few of these adrenaline junkies were regularly involved in motorcade shootings of vehicles -these individual's would knock out engine blocks - they would even keep score and competed with co-workers to get the highest count. Unfortunately some people died during these games. These same individuals were also shooting birds / ducks while flying over a river and hanging out of a helicopter... Again, accidents happened and people got hurt. These same individual's- binge drank alcohol, would seek out unsuspecting women, invite these lady's to parties, drugged them and they sexually assaulted several women. Insane thrill seeking activities like this have happened in combat.
And you say a Combat Engineers / EOD Tech's couldn't be out in the desert and shooting a sniper rifle at insurgents? Anything is possible in this crazy world we live in.
One last point -
Adrenaline junkie - is a term used to describe somebody who appears to be addicted to epinephrine (endogenous) and such a person is sometimes described as getting a "high" from life. The term adrenaline junkie was popularly used in the 1991 movie "Point Break" to describe individuals who enjoyed dangerous activities (such as extreme sports) for the adrenaline "rush". Adrenaline junkies appear to favor stressful activities for the release of epinephrine as a stress response. Doing this may result in physical harm because of the potential danger. Whether or not the positive response is caused specifically by epinephrine is difficult to determine, as endorphins are also released during the fight-or-flight response to such activities.[15][16]
Click this link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinephrine
As for the movie Hurt Locker- it wasn't about combat so much, as it was about human behavior and thrill seeking activities and the types of individual's war attracts or perhaps it makes. Kinda like the Chicken and the Egg Theory.
One last note, Katherine Bigelow did a good job of evoking a emotional response from each and every one of you who have seen the movie. Sam Peckinpah would be proud of her. If you haven't seen the movie, I recommend that you do AM and you keep an open mind.
Elf, Thanks for the input
Elf, Thanks for the input about the Crocodile. First link is informative, the second gave a break from an otherwise dangerous task.
***********
Kratos, Couple questions...
1) Have you ever been in frontline combat. Hands dirty?
2) Interested in what you have to say about taking a pretty normal person who has been raised to know killing is wrong, training them to kill, and letting them kill.
To know fear is to know adrenaline. Someone that has known fear does not need to have a book read to them.
1) Z, I've seen a little
1) Z, I've seen a little bit. I keep a bottle of Purell with me.
2) Two of the seven virtues of Bushidō are benevolence or honesty. Which of those two do you hold higher Zak? Whichever virtue you select, that will answer your second question.
Someone who's honest enough to know killing is wrong, I want them in my military. They will typically always make the right choice and will react properly according to how they are trained. Killing happens in war. This is why have we have a code of conduct and rules of engagement, to keep those who stray from wandering.
A Solider, Marine, Airman/woman or Sailor who knows benevolence, they will win the hearts and minds of their toughest enemy. Wars end with this word. Hell, we even have a ship named after it. USS Benevolence (AH-13), a Haven class hospital ship.
If you're having problems with either of those two answers Zak, I recommend you get some counseling and take a few weeks off work, so you can figure life out.
. . . You blinked.....and
.
.
.
You blinked.....and your eye pupil diameter changed quite a bit.....
You should watch that.
. . . Should watch my
.
.
.
Should watch my eye-relief or that I'm being consider to be a Replicant?
Let me know if you need to talk off line Zak. We can get you in Cognitive Processing Therapy, its not too late.
What I personally liked
What I personally liked about Hurt Locker was the way they depicted the lone wolf behavior of this EOD guy. His ignorance towards rules doesn't help anybody, and instead, one of his team members is being shot. That's rather unusual for such a movie, isn't it liga 1 ?
Why don't you say something
Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" I dunno...just seems to fit around here a lot of the time.
Regards,
parfume
Always with the negative
Always with the negative waves, Moriarty ...a line from one of my favorite movies, Kelly's Heroes.
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"have not seen the Hurt Locker. My only opinion of the director, Katherine Bigelow, is based on Point Break, which we can all agree is the greatest movie ever featuring Keanu Reeves shooting a gun up in the air while screaming."
I agree great movie. Keanu Reeves is really something.
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i did not see the hurt
i did not see the hurt locker.i always think action movies are always interesting to see.have heard good reviews about hurt locker
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War movies are nice specialy
War movies are nice specialy black hawk down.
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