There was also this in The National. Dubai is following the money trail.
Looking at the Wall Street Journal article, the people involved in the killing would have to be complete twits not to consider CCTV. Their opertation did not suggest a non-thinking organization.
Maybe some body was sending a message.
Comment by أبو مقاومةon March 2, 2010 - 1:39pm
There are two ways this thread could go. Comparing Ivy, Anna, and <gasp> Gabriella. Or finding the best Robert Baer quotes. The first issue is settled, so here's a pretty good quote:
"Mr. BAER: I was disowned by the CIA. In 1995 I was brought up on charges of attempting to kill Saddam Hussein. I was told not to have a lawyer, and I was--at the end of it, the FBI told me this was a capital crime and they could have brought charges against me had they wanted to. They chose not to. So Gaghan has taken this story and, of course, rejiggered it, and you do get cut loose."
Top that.
Comment by Gays in the Military, Butt Piracy in the Barracks No GOOD!on March 2, 2010 - 1:43pm
(here's Balawi before his glorious shahada, me thinks he's gay)
Comment by Visitoron March 2, 2010 - 1:43pm
Quote, NYT
There is also financial evidence that suggests an Israeli link. The Dubai police have said a company called Payoneer played a role in issuing credit cards for a number of the suspects. Payoneer is based in New York but has offices in Tel Aviv. Its chief executive, Yuval Tal, appeared in 2006 as a commentator on the war between Israel and Hezbollah, identifying himself as a former Israeli special forces soldier.
Likewise, all those people in the videos can never leave Israel again, really, can they, what with modern biometric monitors? You do get the sense that they many of them were raised in the isolated kibbutz environment, though...
Regardless, Israeli PR agencies seem to have settled on the "we meant for all this to happen" theme. This was most prominently displayed in a Reuters article:
"They got in, killed the guy and disappeared, without leaving proof of who they were," said Robert Ayers, a former U.S. intelligence officer. "It doesn't get any better than that."
Yes - blowing the cover of all your agents is part of the plan - and was this supposed to look like an assassination, or like an accidental death? Why the drugging and suffocation, for example?
Experts say the fact they would be caught on security cameras would have been factored in, although Dubai's decision to publish the photos might have raised eyebrows.
That looks like a PR push, doesn't it? Why go with that? Trying to put a good face on a massive blunder?
Comment by Bob Baer doesn't want Gays in the Militaryon March 2, 2010 - 1:50pm
Bob Barnes: Come on Jimmy, you're not one of those Koran thumpers!
Mussawi: My name is Mussawi. [rips off another nail, then starts punching Bob] You fucking fuck, fucking fuck, stupid fuck, what the fuck, this is a war! Fuck you're a PO fucking W! Give me the fucking names! I'm cutting his fucking head off. I'm going to cut your head off, Bob!
Comment by g.d.on March 2, 2010 - 1:53pm
Quote, NYT
There is also financial evidence that suggests an Israeli link. The Dubai police have said a company called Payoneer played a role in issuing credit cards for a number of the suspects. Payoneer is based in New York but has offices in Tel Aviv. Its chief executive, Yuval Tal, appeared in 2006 as a commentator on the war between Israel and Hezbollah, identifying himself as a former Israeli special forces soldier.
Likewise, all those people in the videos can never leave Israel again, really, can they, what with modern biometric monitors? You do get the sense that they many of them were raised in the isolated kibbutz environment, though...
Regardless, Israeli PR agencies seem to have settled on the "we meant for all this to happen" theme. This was most prominently displayed in a Reuters article:
"They got in, killed the guy and disappeared, without leaving proof of who they were," said Robert Ayers, a former U.S. intelligence officer. "It doesn't get any better than that."
Yes - blowing the cover of all your agents is part of the plan - and was this supposed to look like an assassination, or like an accidental death? Why the drugging and suffocation, for example?
Experts say the fact they would be caught on security cameras would have been factored in, although Dubai's decision to publish the photos might have raised eyebrows.
That looks like a PR push, doesn't it? Why go with that? Trying to put a good face on a massive blunder?
Comment by Matton March 2, 2010 - 3:08pm
I think they did the hit and intentionally exposed themselves. Their message is that they wanted the world to know that technology might identify them after the fact, but it certainly did not protect Mr. Mabhouh. So that was the positive effect of saying 'we will kill you and the world's best security measures cannot protect you'. The psychological impact of such a thing, will certainly do it's damage.
The Israelis do everything for a reason, and this hit should not be interpreted as some kind of technologically ignorant move that Robert Baer has labeled it as. Hell, I wouldn't doubt that the Israelis were partly responsible for creating some of the CCTV stuff and software, that these guys in Dubai were using.
As for the CCTV stuff being shown all over the world and blaming Israel for it? Maybe Israel wanted to get blamed for it, and that all of this attention is just free publicity. Because before the hit, their reputation was exactly the same after the hit--and that is everyone hates them regardless.
The other point is that this attack also sends a different signal. That Israel will do what it takes to accomplish the mission, and killing Mabhouh was a great message to countries like Iran and their proxy army Hamas. Mabhouh also had dealings with Iran, when he smuggled weapons. At least I got the message. I also got the message when the new Israeli UAV came on to the scene.
Comment by The death of Mabhouh is uselesson March 2, 2010 - 6:55pm
Kill 1, 500 will come.
Comment by elfon March 2, 2010 - 9:53pm
Kill 1, 500 will come.
I wonder about that. And why and for what are they coming, pray tell? What is the actual purpose at this point? Are they so deluded to think they will destroy Israel?
Comment by Fnordon March 3, 2010 - 6:00am
I think most likely they screwed up, big time. Thats 4 different sets of operatives and 2 killers and 2 comptrollers pretty much exposed. Looks like Mossad used it as a training exercise/ as a changing of the guards, with young teams working tandem with the old teams. Either that, or there was a clear message here to more than one actor, admiral Mullen was due in Israel a few days later.
ts very very Lieberman that this killing took place at the same time as the first Israeli athlete competed in Dubai, heck the London embassy even tweeted about the murder linking it to the sport-event- Guess they got any chance of working with the Gulf states good and killed, just like they wanteds too. (And by "they" I mean the ultra-nationalists of the current government wich does not seem so much a united government as a coalition of wildly disagreeing separate political entities.).
If you look on the tendency in the last year, it seems clear that some forces in Israel are actively seeking confrontation w their less beligerent neighbours (Turkey, Jordan, and now UAE). Precisely the same countries that Obama hoped to use as leverage in his ME outreach plan. Hows that working out for y`all?
Comment by Visitoron March 3, 2010 - 6:10am
Maybe 500 will come, but they will not have the important skills. It takes at least a decade, probably more, to train a senior figure like Mabhouh. Even intangible assets like personal friends and acquaintances play role.
The inexperienced substitutes will make more errors from the beginning. Some of them won't survive those errors.
No, killing of a senior experienced negotiator and military commander is not useless. Imagine Wehrmacht without Guderian or the Red Army without Zhukov. Or, recently, the "surge" without Petraeus and Odierno.
Comment by Visitoron March 3, 2010 - 6:41am
Visitor 5.10: Yeah, Hamas is really a fighting force on the level with the german panzer armies. I can understand your logic with regards to Mugnyieh, but this one seems more like a politicaly motivated raised middlefinger to all Israels neighbours (and the EU).
Comment by elf extends left thumbon March 3, 2010 - 10:23am
So very Liebermann,
Dude, you have slipped into anti Semitism.
And since the neighbors are all in the business of giving them the middle finger on a daily basis, what is to be expected? Does someone think land, money, guns, training in exchange for not peace but terrorism and abuse would go on forever?
As far as comparisons with the Germans, I think really, really we should have made a deal with the Nazi's. The Euro's would have been better people today (well, the Aryan ones anyway).
Well we didn't give into a far worthier foe. So we shouldn't give into these whiny tough guys c*nts either.
Comment by Visitoron March 3, 2010 - 10:34am
To Elf at 8:53: "Are they so deluded to think they will destroy Israel?"
Long after all of us who visit this site are dead and gone, Israel as it is presently constituted will cease to exist as a nation state. Maybe 100 years, maybe 500 years, maybe a 1000. Maybe it will happen peacefully, or maybe violently. I don't know when and how.
I say this not to be critical of or anti- towards the Jewish people and their religion, but to simply point out that the nation state of Israel is merely the current ruler of this part of the world, which has been ruled since the beginning of recorded history by a number of powerful governments, some Jewish but most foreign, all of whom no longer rule, and with the exceptions of France and England no longer exist.
Comment by أبو مقاومةon March 3, 2010 - 11:15am
Fantastic BBC interview with "Son of Hamas." I can't make up my mind whether to call this guy severly naïve, self-deluded, tragically confused, or all of the above. "I wasn't working for Shin Bet's agenda -- they were working for mine."
A case study how to exploit psychological weaknesses to turn a major intelligence asset. It would be fascinating to read Yousef's handler's profile and script, but after listening to this interview, we can fill in most of the blanks.
This crowd will love the part where Son of Hamas says that there will be no peace with Muslims so long as they adhere to Islam.
Comment by Gays should do it on the Down Low (DL), not celebrate iton March 3, 2010 - 1:52pm
"I can't make up my mind whether to call this guy severly naïve, self-deluded, tragically confused, or all of the above."
Ex,
trust your instinct, and just call it what it is. this guy is obviously gay.
he's been known to frequent gay bars in the san diego area.
obviously when he was in prison, he was made loved to prison style--otherwise known as boingked in the ass.
if you look at our own history of treachery in the U.S., sexual deviance always plays a huge part in these events.
that's why one's choice of sexual deviance, should be kept in the DL, because foreign agencies can easily exploit this.
reinstate DADT, but from now on, let's use 1970s black parlance and call it "on the DL", think of it as rebranding.
Comment by Matton March 3, 2010 - 5:32pm
Also remember that the Zodiac killer was a pedophile/homosexual. Keep that in mind.
Comment by Salah Al-Din believes in Sura 8 and 9on March 3, 2010 - 6:21pm
He is correct. If you read Suras 8 and 9 in the Holy Qur'an, Allah instructs Muslims to kill Christians and Jews. You all can read this for yourselves. This is fact.
Comment by Visitor with question for Elfon March 3, 2010 - 10:50pm
Well Elf,
"They" don't have to worry, simple demographics will give them ultimate victory. To put it simply, they are having more and more kids. And unfortunately for Israel, the Christian proportion of "their" population is getting smaller with each generation. We'll all be dead before Israel gives out, but I expect by the end of this century, unless something changes, Israel will be a full-fledged fortress state out of a Sci-fi movie. Israel has to face the fact that it can't continue to scrounge up every single soul on the globe with at least one Jewish great-great-grandmother, this policy is getting less and less feasible. These days they are bringing in Russian skinheads and Burmese people. Everybody is already aware of this no matter what their political persuasion. If the Israeli leadership were smart, they'd try to create a Levant nationalism and make overtures to the Palestinians, including affirmative action, and be way nicer to the Lebanese Muslims. But, tell me elf, how high can they build them walls? How many Palestinians can they keep packed in those Bantustans until they explode. And don't try to blame the Egyptians or Jordanians for Palestinian misery. Even if they are responsible, doesn't change the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are demographic ticking time bombs. Heck, I'm not even arguing against Zionism, I think Hertzl was right, a Jewish state is a necessary thing. But Herzl was smarter than lots of people, he didn't care where that state would be. That said, Israel is a de facto situation and the Israelis have a right to exist. But I suspect an exclusively Jewish state, at least in Israel, isn't tennable in the long term. Maybe I'm wrong, considering that this little piece of land drives everyone involved insane anything could happen.
Comment by Elf on demographicson March 5, 2010 - 10:10am
Well good point on the demography. However if it's demography that determines the future we're all doomed.
I am mixed on this point - I think that other factors come into play - like will, skill, leadership. Israel came into existence against long odds - demographic and otherwise - because she was completely mobilized and cohesive, her enemies were not - and still aren't. That's not likely to change.
I don't think Israel can be held responsible for the situation in Bantustan - they gave back Gaza, much of the West Bank - etc - money, guns, land to the Pals. Then the Pals chose terror and war - and lost. Again .
I can't think of another historical example of a people losing over and over and being given another chance over and over again. We would have long since put it to the sword.
Burmese Jews, eh? That is droll.
Comment by the Burmese pythonon March 5, 2010 - 11:52am
The first recorded Jew in the country was Solomon Gabirol, who served as a commander in the army of King Alaungpaya in the 18th century.
In the 19th century, Jewish merchants from India began establishing sizable communities in Rangoon and Mandalay. This included Baghdadi Jews, Cochin Jews, and the Bene Israel. Under British rule, the local Jewish community prospered with small businesses, and trading in cotton and rice. With the Japanese invasion in 1942, many Jews fled to India. Though the Japanese were allies of the Nazis, they did not have any particular antipathy towards the Jews. At the same time, they viewed the local Jews with suspicion as a pro-British and a "European" group. Following nationalization of businesses in the 1964, the community suffered further decline, with many members moving to other countries. The country's last rabbi left in 1969.
As of 2002, only 20 Jews remained in Yangon, the capital city. Most Burmese Jews have immigrated to Israel. The local Jews use the Musmeah Yeshua Synagogue, but it rarely draws the required quorum of men for a full religious service. Often, employees of the Israeli embassy help synagogue keeper Moses Samuel maintain regular service.
In the north of Burma, on the Indian border, the Mizo people, who are ethnically descended from Tibet have taken on the belief that they descend from the lost tribe of Manasseh, based on certain traditions shared with Judaism. Those who have converted intend to immigrate to Israel. Many have embraced Orthodox Judaism and have settled in Judea, Samaria, and Gush Katif. They are known as the Bnei Menashe.
Burma is the first Asian nation to recognize Israel and maintains diplomatic relations with the Jewish state. Israel opened its first Diplomatic mission in Yangon in 1953, and in 1957 it became an embassy. Both nations shared a Socialist outlook in their early years and held extensive contacts between their respective leaders.
Comment by Fnordon March 5, 2010 - 1:01pm
" "So very Liebermann",
Dude, you have slipped into anti Semitism."
Elf, whut? Lieberman is the foreign minister of Israel by last check, and his style has been one of populist confrontation of all things muslim. How is recognizing that point "Anti-Semitism"?
Comment by elfon March 5, 2010 - 3:55pm
Ah...I stand corrected Fnord. I thought you meant Senator Joseph Lieberman. Sorry. Forgot about the other one.
Comment by Fnordon March 8, 2010 - 3:05pm
Btw, Elf, you notice that Interpol is treating this as a murder case, w 27 international warrants for the folks who did it? In my country, Interpol is like FBI. The honest cops who hunt the big guys. Same romance.
In Palin/Nethanyahu land, theyre ALL, we are ALL a bunch of anti-semites. Ive been reading Jerusalem Post too long, they think Obama is a secret muslim.
Comment by Jaydev,Indiaon March 16, 2010 - 2:39am
@Fnord
Plz dont compare Palin's IQ with Nethanyahu..its kind of disingenous. Palin's Party may for ideological or funding reasons supports Israeli hardline(if u can call it that) positions..doesnt merit comparing IQs..Anybody who thinks a Harvard & MIT alumini who is also a great soldier is a moron ..is a moron..
Add your comment
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There was also this in The National. Dubai is following the money trail.
Looking at the Wall Street Journal article, the people involved in the killing would have to be complete twits not to consider CCTV. Their opertation did not suggest a non-thinking organization.
Maybe some body was sending a message.
There are two ways this thread could go. Comparing Ivy, Anna, and <gasp> Gabriella. Or finding the best Robert Baer quotes. The first issue is settled, so here's a pretty good quote:
Top that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNlMFR8xGko
(here's Balawi before his glorious shahada, me thinks he's gay)
Quote, NYT
There is also financial evidence that suggests an Israeli link. The Dubai police have said a company called Payoneer played a role in issuing credit cards for a number of the suspects. Payoneer is based in New York but has offices in Tel Aviv. Its chief executive, Yuval Tal, appeared in 2006 as a commentator on the war between Israel and Hezbollah, identifying himself as a former Israeli special forces soldier.
Likewise, all those people in the videos can never leave Israel again, really, can they, what with modern biometric monitors? You do get the sense that they many of them were raised in the isolated kibbutz environment, though...
http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/articles/36-israel/691-british-suspect-disappears-from-his-kibbutz
Regardless, Israeli PR agencies seem to have settled on the "we meant for all this to happen" theme. This was most prominently displayed in a Reuters article:
"They got in, killed the guy and disappeared, without leaving proof of who they were," said Robert Ayers, a former U.S. intelligence officer. "It doesn't get any better than that."
Yes - blowing the cover of all your agents is part of the plan - and was this supposed to look like an assassination, or like an accidental death? Why the drugging and suffocation, for example?
Experts say the fact they would be caught on security cameras would have been factored in, although Dubai's decision to publish the photos might have raised eyebrows.
That looks like a PR push, doesn't it? Why go with that? Trying to put a good face on a massive blunder?
(Bob Baer on Gays)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z5BnihtWfs
Bob Barnes: Come on Jimmy, you're not one of those Koran thumpers!
Mussawi: My name is Mussawi. [rips off another nail, then starts punching Bob] You fucking fuck, fucking fuck, stupid fuck, what the fuck, this is a war! Fuck you're a PO fucking W! Give me the fucking names! I'm cutting his fucking head off. I'm going to cut your head off, Bob!
Quote, NYT
There is also financial evidence that suggests an Israeli link. The Dubai police have said a company called Payoneer played a role in issuing credit cards for a number of the suspects. Payoneer is based in New York but has offices in Tel Aviv. Its chief executive, Yuval Tal, appeared in 2006 as a commentator on the war between Israel and Hezbollah, identifying himself as a former Israeli special forces soldier.
Likewise, all those people in the videos can never leave Israel again, really, can they, what with modern biometric monitors? You do get the sense that they many of them were raised in the isolated kibbutz environment, though...
http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/articles/36-israel/691-british-suspect-disappears-from-his-kibbutz
Regardless, Israeli PR agencies seem to have settled on the "we meant for all this to happen" theme. This was most prominently displayed in a Reuters article:
"They got in, killed the guy and disappeared, without leaving proof of who they were," said Robert Ayers, a former U.S. intelligence officer. "It doesn't get any better than that."
Yes - blowing the cover of all your agents is part of the plan - and was this supposed to look like an assassination, or like an accidental death? Why the drugging and suffocation, for example?
Experts say the fact they would be caught on security cameras would have been factored in, although Dubai's decision to publish the photos might have raised eyebrows.
That looks like a PR push, doesn't it? Why go with that? Trying to put a good face on a massive blunder?
I think they did the hit and intentionally exposed themselves. Their message is that they wanted the world to know that technology might identify them after the fact, but it certainly did not protect Mr. Mabhouh. So that was the positive effect of saying 'we will kill you and the world's best security measures cannot protect you'. The psychological impact of such a thing, will certainly do it's damage.
The Israelis do everything for a reason, and this hit should not be interpreted as some kind of technologically ignorant move that Robert Baer has labeled it as. Hell, I wouldn't doubt that the Israelis were partly responsible for creating some of the CCTV stuff and software, that these guys in Dubai were using.
As for the CCTV stuff being shown all over the world and blaming Israel for it? Maybe Israel wanted to get blamed for it, and that all of this attention is just free publicity. Because before the hit, their reputation was exactly the same after the hit--and that is everyone hates them regardless.
The other point is that this attack also sends a different signal. That Israel will do what it takes to accomplish the mission, and killing Mabhouh was a great message to countries like Iran and their proxy army Hamas. Mabhouh also had dealings with Iran, when he smuggled weapons. At least I got the message. I also got the message when the new Israeli UAV came on to the scene.
Kill 1, 500 will come.
Kill 1, 500 will come.
I wonder about that. And why and for what are they coming, pray tell? What is the actual purpose at this point? Are they so deluded to think they will destroy Israel?
I think most likely they screwed up, big time. Thats 4 different sets of operatives and 2 killers and 2 comptrollers pretty much exposed. Looks like Mossad used it as a training exercise/ as a changing of the guards, with young teams working tandem with the old teams. Either that, or there was a clear message here to more than one actor, admiral Mullen was due in Israel a few days later.
ts very very Lieberman that this killing took place at the same time as the first Israeli athlete competed in Dubai, heck the London embassy even tweeted about the murder linking it to the sport-event- Guess they got any chance of working with the Gulf states good and killed, just like they wanteds too. (And by "they" I mean the ultra-nationalists of the current government wich does not seem so much a united government as a coalition of wildly disagreeing separate political entities.).
If you look on the tendency in the last year, it seems clear that some forces in Israel are actively seeking confrontation w their less beligerent neighbours (Turkey, Jordan, and now UAE). Precisely the same countries that Obama hoped to use as leverage in his ME outreach plan. Hows that working out for y`all?
Maybe 500 will come, but they will not have the important skills. It takes at least a decade, probably more, to train a senior figure like Mabhouh. Even intangible assets like personal friends and acquaintances play role.
The inexperienced substitutes will make more errors from the beginning. Some of them won't survive those errors.
No, killing of a senior experienced negotiator and military commander is not useless. Imagine Wehrmacht without Guderian or the Red Army without Zhukov. Or, recently, the "surge" without Petraeus and Odierno.
Visitor 5.10: Yeah, Hamas is really a fighting force on the level with the german panzer armies. I can understand your logic with regards to Mugnyieh, but this one seems more like a politicaly motivated raised middlefinger to all Israels neighbours (and the EU).
So very Liebermann,
Dude, you have slipped into anti Semitism.
And since the neighbors are all in the business of giving them the middle finger on a daily basis, what is to be expected? Does someone think land, money, guns, training in exchange for not peace but terrorism and abuse would go on forever?
As far as comparisons with the Germans, I think really, really we should have made a deal with the Nazi's. The Euro's would have been better people today (well, the Aryan ones anyway).
Well we didn't give into a far worthier foe. So we shouldn't give into these whiny tough guys c*nts either.
To Elf at 8:53: "Are they so deluded to think they will destroy Israel?"
Long after all of us who visit this site are dead and gone, Israel as it is presently constituted will cease to exist as a nation state. Maybe 100 years, maybe 500 years, maybe a 1000. Maybe it will happen peacefully, or maybe violently. I don't know when and how.
I say this not to be critical of or anti- towards the Jewish people and their religion, but to simply point out that the nation state of Israel is merely the current ruler of this part of the world, which has been ruled since the beginning of recorded history by a number of powerful governments, some Jewish but most foreign, all of whom no longer rule, and with the exceptions of France and England no longer exist.
Fantastic BBC interview with "Son of Hamas." I can't make up my mind whether to call this guy severly naïve, self-deluded, tragically confused, or all of the above. "I wasn't working for Shin Bet's agenda -- they were working for mine."
A case study how to exploit psychological weaknesses to turn a major intelligence asset. It would be fascinating to read Yousef's handler's profile and script, but after listening to this interview, we can fill in most of the blanks.
This crowd will love the part where Son of Hamas says that there will be no peace with Muslims so long as they adhere to Islam.
"I can't make up my mind whether to call this guy severly naïve, self-deluded, tragically confused, or all of the above."
Ex,
trust your instinct, and just call it what it is. this guy is obviously gay.
he's been known to frequent gay bars in the san diego area.
obviously when he was in prison, he was made loved to prison style--otherwise known as boingked in the ass.
if you look at our own history of treachery in the U.S., sexual deviance always plays a huge part in these events.
that's why one's choice of sexual deviance, should be kept in the DL, because foreign agencies can easily exploit this.
reinstate DADT, but from now on, let's use 1970s black parlance and call it "on the DL", think of it as rebranding.
Also remember that the Zodiac killer was a pedophile/homosexual. Keep that in mind.
He is correct. If you read Suras 8 and 9 in the Holy Qur'an, Allah instructs Muslims to kill Christians and Jews. You all can read this for yourselves. This is fact.
Well Elf,
"They" don't have to worry, simple demographics will give them ultimate victory. To put it simply, they are having more and more kids. And unfortunately for Israel, the Christian proportion of "their" population is getting smaller with each generation. We'll all be dead before Israel gives out, but I expect by the end of this century, unless something changes, Israel will be a full-fledged fortress state out of a Sci-fi movie. Israel has to face the fact that it can't continue to scrounge up every single soul on the globe with at least one Jewish great-great-grandmother, this policy is getting less and less feasible. These days they are bringing in Russian skinheads and Burmese people. Everybody is already aware of this no matter what their political persuasion. If the Israeli leadership were smart, they'd try to create a Levant nationalism and make overtures to the Palestinians, including affirmative action, and be way nicer to the Lebanese Muslims. But, tell me elf, how high can they build them walls? How many Palestinians can they keep packed in those Bantustans until they explode. And don't try to blame the Egyptians or Jordanians for Palestinian misery. Even if they are responsible, doesn't change the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are demographic ticking time bombs. Heck, I'm not even arguing against Zionism, I think Hertzl was right, a Jewish state is a necessary thing. But Herzl was smarter than lots of people, he didn't care where that state would be. That said, Israel is a de facto situation and the Israelis have a right to exist. But I suspect an exclusively Jewish state, at least in Israel, isn't tennable in the long term. Maybe I'm wrong, considering that this little piece of land drives everyone involved insane anything could happen.
Well good point on the demography. However if it's demography that determines the future we're all doomed.
I am mixed on this point - I think that other factors come into play - like will, skill, leadership. Israel came into existence against long odds - demographic and otherwise - because she was completely mobilized and cohesive, her enemies were not - and still aren't. That's not likely to change.
I don't think Israel can be held responsible for the situation in Bantustan - they gave back Gaza, much of the West Bank - etc - money, guns, land to the Pals. Then the Pals chose terror and war - and lost. Again .
I can't think of another historical example of a people losing over and over and being given another chance over and over again. We would have long since put it to the sword.
Burmese Jews, eh? That is droll.
The first recorded Jew in the country was Solomon Gabirol, who served as a commander in the army of King Alaungpaya in the 18th century.
In the 19th century, Jewish merchants from India began establishing sizable communities in Rangoon and Mandalay. This included Baghdadi Jews, Cochin Jews, and the Bene Israel. Under British rule, the local Jewish community prospered with small businesses, and trading in cotton and rice. With the Japanese invasion in 1942, many Jews fled to India. Though the Japanese were allies of the Nazis, they did not have any particular antipathy towards the Jews. At the same time, they viewed the local Jews with suspicion as a pro-British and a "European" group. Following nationalization of businesses in the 1964, the community suffered further decline, with many members moving to other countries. The country's last rabbi left in 1969.
As of 2002, only 20 Jews remained in Yangon, the capital city. Most Burmese Jews have immigrated to Israel. The local Jews use the Musmeah Yeshua Synagogue, but it rarely draws the required quorum of men for a full religious service. Often, employees of the Israeli embassy help synagogue keeper Moses Samuel maintain regular service.
In the north of Burma, on the Indian border, the Mizo people, who are ethnically descended from Tibet have taken on the belief that they descend from the lost tribe of Manasseh, based on certain traditions shared with Judaism. Those who have converted intend to immigrate to Israel. Many have embraced Orthodox Judaism and have settled in Judea, Samaria, and Gush Katif. They are known as the Bnei Menashe.
Burma is the first Asian nation to recognize Israel and maintains diplomatic relations with the Jewish state. Israel opened its first Diplomatic mission in Yangon in 1953, and in 1957 it became an embassy. Both nations shared a Socialist outlook in their early years and held extensive contacts between their respective leaders.
" "So very Liebermann",
Dude, you have slipped into anti Semitism."
Elf, whut? Lieberman is the foreign minister of Israel by last check, and his style has been one of populist confrontation of all things muslim. How is recognizing that point "Anti-Semitism"?
Ah...I stand corrected Fnord. I thought you meant Senator Joseph Lieberman. Sorry. Forgot about the other one.
Btw, Elf, you notice that Interpol is treating this as a murder case, w 27 international warrants for the folks who did it? In my country, Interpol is like FBI. The honest cops who hunt the big guys. Same romance.
In Palin/Nethanyahu land, theyre ALL, we are ALL a bunch of anti-semites. Ive been reading Jerusalem Post too long, they think Obama is a secret muslim.
@Fnord
Plz dont compare Palin's IQ with Nethanyahu..its kind of disingenous. Palin's Party may for ideological or funding reasons supports Israeli hardline(if u can call it that) positions..doesnt merit comparing IQs..Anybody who thinks a Harvard & MIT alumini who is also a great soldier is a moron ..is a moron..
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