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Arguing extremism
A lot of people in Western Europe and North America (OK, possibly Australia too) are of the opinion that Islam = death, destruction and terrorism (with some female hating thrown in). Even those with a slightly more charitable bent of mind will automatically assume that the only way forward for the Muslim world is a development process that mirrors what happened in the West. This is not only a little limited in imagination but also plays into the latent fears of many in the Muslim world. Fears which are then skilfully manipulated by the messages put out by extremists.
Which is why I was surprised and pleased to see this pop into my inbox courtesy of the Jamestown Foundation's Terrorism Monitor:
"CONTROVERSIAL GATHERING OF ISLAMIC SCHOLARS REFUTES AL-QAEDA’S IDEOLOGICAL CORNERSTONE"
I don't want to paste the full article as it's fairly long, so I'll sum it up. The gathering in question was a conference held in Turkey in late March attended by some of the most respected and widely followed Islamic scholars in the Muslim world.
Jamestown reports: "The conference was sponsored by two Muslim NGOs: the Global Center for Renewal and Guidance (GCRG) and Canopus Consulting. The GCRG describes itself as an "independent educational charity." Its president is Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah, a well known Mauritanian scholar of Islam who teaches at King Abdul Aziz University in Saudi Arabia. The GCRG vice-president is Shaykh Hamza Yusuf (a.k.a. Mark Hanson), an American convert to Islam who runs the Zaytuna Institute for Islamic studies in California."
The conference was held in Turkey's Mardin Artuklu University. The location's relevance in the grander scheme of things is that Mardin lends its name to the "Mardin Fatwa", the Islamic legal ruling issued by Taqi al Din Ibn Taymiyyah (1263 - 1328) who argued that it was Islamically permissible for Muslims to declare other Muslims apostates and set about killing them. Sound familiar? Yep, it's Ibn Taymiyyah's Islamic legal arguments that the likes of al-Qaeda use to justify everything from rising up against a tyrannical regime run by Muslims to suicide bombings and beheadings.
The scholars taking part in the conference (find a list of them here) issued a declaration (but not a fatwa) saying: "Anyone who seeks support from [the Mardin] fatwa for killing Muslims or non-Muslims has erred in his interpretation and has misapplied the revealed texts".
I wasn't aware the conference was taking place, but was really interested to hear that it had because many of those involved have also contributed to the project I'm working on in Pakistan, which is called Karvaan-e-Amn (there's a little Union Jack link that will give you the English version). Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah recorded a discussion programme for Pakistani television and Grand Mufti Mustafa Ceric of Bosnia came on an official visit despite the security situation.
Make no mistake, you might not have heard about these people, but they are extremely influential in large bits of the Muslim world. They represent the mainstream world of Islamic scholarship that extremists cannot challenge head on since they don't have the same sort of traditionally recognised grounding. Instead, they rely on a different sort of legitimacy - the kind you gain from fighting a war or spending time in jail (or both). Imagine a "scientist" who got his "degree" on the internet telling people with doctorates in astrophysics from both MIT and Cambridge that while locked away by the government for discovering a secret project to build superweapons a dying alien imparted to him the secret of interstellar space travel... and it involves a food processor.
To help give you an idea of the kind of following I'm talking about, here's a few lines from an article I wrote in the Telegraph a year back when I covered a different gathering in Mali attended by similar figures:
"As the conference delegates started arriving in Bamako, the extent of their influence became clear. Shaykh Tijane Cisse from Senegal commands the devotion of over 50 million people in West Africa... Fifteen minutes after he arrived at the hotel without prior announcement, word spread around the city of his presence and a steady flow of followers formed a line leading to his room."
Looking back, "steady flow" was an understatement, the place was mobbed.
Sadly we are at a point where these men need to take a stand against an ideology that was pretty much buried with Ibn Taymiyyah and the Mongol horsemen he had in mind when he formulated it. It was dug up again in the 20th century by men and women who psychologically needed an Islamic justification to confront the injustices they felt were all around them.
It's also a measure of how badly "the war for hearts and minds" (to use a cliche) is going when it seems as if the standard bearers of the mainstream are actually the minority. So, if you happen to be among those that think Islam is all about killing people and dragging society back to the 7th century, you have friends who.. well, actually do want to kill people and drag society back to the 7th century. And if you think that Muslims need to be converted/de-Islamised or any of the other Ann Coutler type stuff then you are giving ammunition to people like these guys:
"Reaction also came from an Iraqi militant group, Jaysh al-Fatihin (Conquering Army), which denied that circumstances had changed since the Mardin fatwa. "All of us know that the incidents most similar to our [present] situation were those that happened in the time of Imam Ibn Taymiyya..."
When Grand Mufti Mustafa Ceric was in Pakistan he suggested that perhaps if Muslim scholars in the past had done a better job championing the cause of social and economic development along with accountable government and social justice maybe they wouldn't need to be now refuting an ideology their forebearers had not thought worth commenting on. Today, the problem that men like Dr Ceric, Shaykh Bin Bayyah and Shaykh Tijane face is that they cannot criticise the actions of Muslims in the light of Islamic injunctions without someone saying they are apologists. The Muslim versions of Ann Coulter are quick to point out, "If you don't condemn the injustices of the Western oppressors and their agents, you are excusing their actions."
If we all want to go forward in a non-Ann Coulter type way it is going to involve listening to grievances, because shouting them down or putting your fingers in your ears doesn't make them go away. It just gives someone else less savoury the opportunity to exploit them.
well played... good weekend
well played... good weekend reading. It goes to show you how much fear and mistrust dictates the dialouge for the majority of people on both sides. I pray for the day when the Ann Coulter's of the world have no audience. Thanks for the commentary Londonstani
Londonstani, what you've
Londonstani, what you've written is profound and compelling. Now have the pope explain to the Aryan brotherhood how they've got Christianity all wrong and see how that works.
Anti-Islamic rhetoric is only applied because political correctness won't let many people apply a regional cultural critique lest they be termed bigots. It's perfectly fine to criticize Muslims or Islamofascism, but it's off the table to suggest in polite society that most of the societies from the Straits of Gibralter to Bihar have similar issues, and that many of the forms of behavior decried by Western audiences can be found amongst Hindus, Christians, Jews from the area. The only academic circles that take this regional approach, it seems to this layman, are Gender studies people. Many of the "issues" that are laid at Islam's doorstep were present in the greater Middle East centuries before the Prophet ever lived. Not that the West is any better, mind you, but its pathology lies in other areas.
Hey, hundreds of jobs are
Hey, hundreds of jobs are made every year by stoking islamofobia. What would Pamela Geller and her travelling troupe of hatemongers do for a living? The whole Pajamas Media structure?
the AB (Aryan Brotherhood)
the AB (Aryan Brotherhood) is a prison gang enterprise and is a-religious. Maybe you mean the KKK?
As for Ann Coulter, until the MidEast can produce an Ann Coulter, Sarah Giles and Sarah Palin (all hot conservatives), then there will continue to be NO hope. If your closes Ann Coulter parallel in the MidEast is some fat, bearded guy, then there's no moderate, wise voice, they are all fat, bearded guys. Were there any hot Muslim females present in the Turkey meeting?
Mohammad, Quite right to
Mohammad,
Quite right to point out my mistake. I had some of the Nazi-esque Christian movements of years past, which are related to the KKK, in mind when posting. The Aryan brotherhood probably view Christianity as some foreign, Semitic conspiracy to weaken the Northern peoples; there is a parallel to this amongst some Turkish fascists vis-a-vis Islam. I'm not to keen to visit Aryan brotherhood websites to look further into this, however, shudder.
In either case, Sarah Giles was chosen for her looks. I'm sure she's smart in her very own way, but honestly, she and Palin are both prime examples of the level of maturity found on amongst Republicans and their slightly stupider compatriots in the Tea Parties. I could careless about hotness; obsession with hotness, and other asinine concerns, is why the US is in the fix it is in now. And, finally, Coulter and her ilk are not conservatives. They are Republicans, which with a few exceptions, can be translated as collectivist authoritarian, believer in monopolies and the warfare state, but who spout off some comments in praise of Adam Smith, the Constitution, or the Bible, not understanding what any of the aforementioned texts have to say, and willing to chunk either aside if it stands in the way of their getting ahead or they feel like being naughty in a motel room. That's why they are all coming out in favor of Karzai and his hurt feelings. Karzai's brother is a drug-dealer, Karzai is completely dependent on foreign aid (international welfare), he hangs out with violent thugs, he's very "proud' of where he comes from, his eternal enemies of today are his best friends tomorrow, and everybody makes bank on the scam. What's not to love?
At least we both agree that
At least we both agree that Hannah Giles is hot. I too hope she runs for office.
http://www.goal0.com/store/ A
http://www.goal0.com/store/
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“Small businesses such as Utah-based Goal Zero create 70 percent of all jobs in the U.S.,” Hatch said following his remarks at the ceremony. “They are the economic engine that drives our economy, and they are largely responsible for the innovation that has kept our nation at the forefront of the world’s economy. I salute Goal Zero and Provo Craft and Novelty on the occasion of their being awarded design patent number 600,000. I think these two companies admirably reflect on the tremendously skilled, entrepreneurial and high-tech workforce that is increasingly making Utah the place to do business.”
Other dignitaries in attendance at the event were David Kappos, Director of the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and officials with Goal Zero and its parent company, Provo Craft and Novelty. Founded in 1964, Provo Craft and Novelty, Inc. manufactures and distributes craft, hobby and education projects for school projects, as well as portable batteries, battery packs and solar briefcases.
Londonstani - you are right
Londonstani - you are right on the money when you add Australia to the list of countries that have a large number of people who automatically bundle Islam with death and destruction.
Moderate Islam is an interesting concept, I actually believe that we Muslim and non-Mullins alike require is not moderate Islam but damn angry Islam that decries the hijack job done by militants and extremists. There is no time for softly , softly.
Sadly though one is realistic enough to recognize that in order to stem the flow of vicious and horrific ideology we need time and effort. That will require steps taken and solidified before we can take further steps. Its like COIN I guess, a long haul journey set against the pressure to bring fast and hard results.
Stop white washing Islam and
Stop white washing Islam and Muslims and make excuses for them .They are not children.
They ought to ask themselves why so many people view them the way they do and do some serious soul searching.
Hold them to the same standards you hold the rest of humanity.
one example :
Child bride bleeds to death
A 12-year-old girl bled to death in Yemen as a result of sexual intercourse, three days after her wedding to a man in his twenties, Gulf News reports.
Elham Mahdi Shuee died at the hospital in Hajja. The Sisters Forum for Human Rights, an organisation which campaigns against child marriage, said medical checks had shown she suffered a ruptured womb.
Elham's marriage was an exchange between two families with no dowry involved. Her brother married a girl of the same age from her husband's family. After Elham's death, the other family came to reclaim their daughter.
The case is likely to fuel the debate in Yemen about child marriage. Last month, another 12-year-old girl was granted a divorce from her 26-year-old husband.
A draft law has been presented to parliament which would set a minimum marriage age of 17 for females and 18 for males but is facing tough opposition from traditionalists and religious elements.
Posted by Brian Whitaker, 8 April 2010.
Child bride bleeds to death
Child bride bleeds to death
A 12-year-old girl bled to death in Yemen as a result of sexual intercourse, three days after her wedding to a man in his twenties, Gulf News reports.
Elham Mahdi Shuee died at the hospital in Hajja. The Sisters Forum for Human Rights, an organisation which campaigns against child marriage, said medical checks had shown she suffered a ruptured womb.
Elham's marriage was an exchange between two families with no dowry involved. Her brother married a girl of the same age from her husband's family. After Elham's death, the other family came to reclaim their daughter.
The case is likely to fuel the debate in Yemen about child marriage. Last month, another 12-year-old girl was granted a divorce from her 26-year-old husband.
A draft law has been presented to parliament which would set a minimum marriage age of 17 for females and 18 for males but is facing tough opposition from traditionalists and religious elements.
Posted by Brian Whitaker, 8 April 2010. Comment
Sorry for double posting
Sorry for double posting
Londonstani makes an
Londonstani makes an interesting point about voices within Islam, no matter how respected, and their ability to challenge more extreme thought. But he misses an opportunity to talk about the role women can and must have in this process. "These men", as he puts it, can't make a difference without "these women" playing their part too.
Having pointed out that one of the common misconceptions about Islam is its hatred of women we should look at the role of women in islam and the important part they can play in messaging to the community and the next generation. The role of women in current extremism can't be overlooked either.
Today many young muslim women feel the same alienation and threat that men do...and express that. Some do it through dress, others through membership of organisations exploring interfaith dialogue, some through their own interpretation of jihad. In short, women have the same diverse range of reactions to current politics and attitudes to Islam as men. In some cases, their choices, for instance through dress, have a broad reach in popular perceptions. Look at France, Holland, Switzerland and their attitudes to what Muslim women wear. Your average European/North American seems to regard women's visible manifestations of faith very threatening indeed. And for many young Muslim women this becomes a political statement.
Islam has a rich tradition of women thinkers, dating back to Khadija herself. Islam, despite the western stereotypes, does not afford Muslim women less of a brain or voice. Forgetting this leads to the ridiculous stereotypes that Londonstani points out. As does, incidentally, rating women by how "hot" they are or viewing Islam through a prism of cultural practices such as child marriage.
For those interested in the
For those interested in the anti-islam industry, I reccomend http://www.loonwatch.com for a tongue-in-cheek look into the world of fear.
Thank you for pointing that
Thank you for pointing that out Thinking Sister. That was a careless omission on my part.
Visitor 7:07 It's people
Visitor 7:07
It's people like you who are the cause of the so called anti-islam industry. By ignoring legitimate concers or making fun of them, you push people. they push back.
Thinking Sister
You raised a very interesting question.
Religion vs. cultural practices .
Where one ends and the other begins. Hard to tell.
Thinking sister, Western
Thinking sister,
Western self-serving stereotypes aside, and yes Islam gets blamed for many cultural problems not its own fault, are you seriously suggesting that there aren't serious social gender issues in the Middle East, South Asia, and Central Asia?
Yes, Khadja was an independent, assertive woman, and so was Aisha, but so what.What has that got to do with the status of women throughout the greater Middle East, S A, and CA? It's like starting a discussion of current Jewish issues with a discourse about Moses' sister Miriam. And don't start with the now classic, but you don't know how free and independent Saudi and Iranian women are in the private sphere. And the Muslim female self-assertion in the West is often characterized by feminist, post-colonialist discourse. In other words, it itself is a hybrid form of expression, and is as much "Western" as it is "Islamic."
I repeat, the seriousness of the conversation that needs to be had is trivialized by Western ignorance and bumbling, Muslim refusal to lose international face, Post-modern academic sophistry, and political correctness.
Radical reform won't happen overnight, and radical reform isn't necessarily a good thing; we shouldn't confuse decadence with freedom. And I wouldn't want anybody to copy the West, which is just as pathological, but pathological in a different way. Finally, I don't see a profound difference in the cultural attitudes of the radicals from their non-radical compatriots, excepting that liberal, critical, self-aware minority who tend to be minorities wherever they are in the world. For the rest the difference is one of degree, not of kind.
Thank you for this post,
Thank you for this post, Londonstani. It is a shame that many of these events that take place on a regular basis go unreported in the Western Media. I noticed on the site you mentioned that many of the same individuals that were involved in the Mardin Conference [which I learned about by chance through the Turkish daily Today's Zaman] were also part of the effort to save Somalia. Habib Ali [al Jifri] is a star among youth around the Arab world and East Africa and his centuries old religous center in Tarim, Hadramawt also works, I believe, with Hamza Yusuf and his Zaytuna Institute in California. Few Americans know about the incredible work of Britain's young Muslim group, The Radical Middle Way, which deserves a spotlight.
What is missing is some central site that could highlight all these initiatives and events of real importance to shaping a new generation of Muslims.
Londonstani, I would
Londonstani,
I would suggest reading Raymond Ibrahim on this subject. Below is an excerpt:
"Such observations confuse history and theology by conflating the temporal actions of men with what are understood to be the immutable words of God. The fundamental error is that Judeo-Christian history—which is violent—is being conflated with Islamic theology—which commands violence."
"Old Testament violence is an interesting case in point. God clearly ordered the Hebrews to annihilate the Canaanites and surrounding peoples. Such violence is therefore an expression of God's will, for good or ill. Regardless, all the historic violence committed by the Hebrews and recorded in the Old Testament is just that—history. It happened; God commanded it. But it revolved around a specific time and place and was directed against a specific people. At no time did such violence go on to become standardized or codified into Jewish law. In short, biblical accounts of violence are descriptive, not prescriptive."
"This is where Islamic violence is unique. Though similar to the violence of the Old Testament—commanded by God and manifested in history—certain aspects of Islamic violence and intolerance have become standardized in Islamic law and apply at all times. Thus, while the violence found in the Qur'an has a historical context, its ultimate significance is theological."
http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism-and-christianity-as-violent-as-i...
Perhaps you have been fooled by the Islamic doctrine of Taqqiya...
Taqqiya, There is a better
Taqqiya,
There is a better paragraph in Ibrahim's article that demands an answer from Londonstani:
"Moreover, concerning the current default position which purports to explain away Islamic violence—that the latter is a product of Muslim frustration vis-à-vis political or economic oppression—one must ask: What about all the oppressed Christians and Jews, not to mention Hindus and Buddhists, of the world today? Where is their religiously-garbed violence? The fact remains: Even though the Islamic world has the lion's share of dramatic headlines—of violence, terrorism, suicide-attacks, decapitations—it is certainly not the only region in the world suffering under both internal and external pressures.
For instance, even though practically all of sub-Saharan Africa is currently riddled with political corruption, oppression and poverty, when it comes to violence, terrorism, and sheer chaos, Somalia—which also happens to be the only sub-Saharan country that is entirely Muslim—leads the pack. Moreover, those most responsible for Somali violence and the enforcement of intolerant, draconian, legal measures—the members of the jihadi group Al-Shabab (the youth)—articulate and justify all their actions through an Islamist paradigm.
In Sudan, too, a jihadi-genocide against the Christian and polytheistic peoples is currently being waged by Khartoum's Islamist government and has left nearly a million "infidels" and "apostates" dead. That the Organization of Islamic Conference has come to the defense of Sudanese president Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir, who is wanted by the International Criminal Court, is further telling of the Islamic body's approval of violence toward both non-Muslims and those deemed not Muslim enough.
Latin American and non-Muslim Asian countries also have their fair share of oppressive, authoritarian regimes, poverty, and all the rest that the Muslim world suffers. Yet, unlike the near daily headlines emanating from the Islamic world, there are no records of practicing Christians, Buddhists, or Hindus crashing explosives-laden vehicles into the buildings of oppressive (e.g., Cuban or Chinese communist) regimes, all the while waving their scriptures in hand and screaming, "Jesus [or Buddha or Vishnu] is great!"
Why?
"It's people like you who
"It's people like you who are the cause of the so called anti-islam industry. By ignoring legitimate concers or making fun of them, you push people. they push back. "
So you mean Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller, who think that Barack Obama is Malcolm Xs lovechild and used to be a drugrunner for the CIA in Pakistan before he converted to jihadic takfiri islam are raising *legitimate concerns"? That Geert Wildewrs who wishes to ban the Quran is a legitimate voice? If so, I have a Hohlwelte theory I wish to sell you, it explains perfectly how the jewish conspiracy is able to control us all by mindwaves. You can just switch the term jewish with muslim, and youre set.
(Verse 5) Then, when the
(Verse 5) Then, when the sacred months have passed — that is, [at] the end of the period of deferment — slay the idolaters wherever you find them, be it during a lawful [period] or a sacred [one], and take them, captive, and confine them, to castles and forts, until they have no choice except [being put to] death or [acceptance of] Islam; and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush, [at every] route that they use (kulla, ‘every’, is in the accusative because a [preceding] genitive-taking preposition has been removed). But if they repent, of unbelief, and establish prayer and pay the alms, then leave their way free, and do not interfere with them. God is Forgiving, Merciful, to those who repent.
the Lord Jesus Christ never orders anyone to slay, kill, decapitate or murder. Read the 4 Holy Gospels.
Therein lies the difference.
Good stuff, get the word
Good stuff, get the word out.
It would have helped had this been made plainer sooner, and you're right - they have to face the fact that they'll get it from the very extremists they are denouncing.
There was a Sufi Cleric in Jersey City who warned Congress to it's face in the 1990's that we had amongst us extremists that were going to kill (at risk of his own life).
Grievances: the hearing of grievances, in particular those that cannot be addressed by us, nor will they be resolved by us (Israel, Kashmir) has lost it's luster over here. Denounce them, Sanction them, Excommunicate them and cast them out. Killing them speaks pretty loud as well. Then come see us about grievances.
The actions of the Iraqi Sahwa spoke louder than any conference could for me. When there's killing going on having a Civil Rights protest isn't the best idea. See: Bloody Sunday.
Your analysis about the politics and countries, cultures, and UK extremists in particular is invaluable as our your insights.
Your reactions to our politics and comprehension of ..well...probably about as deep as my understanding of BNP or RESPECT. Shallow and I'm hardly interested.
Finally on Ann Coulter - when she wrote the convert by sword article she was in Manhattan right after the event. I certify the entire Island stunk of death at that time. Not to mention she was in shock probably, and filled with a quite justified rage. While she hasn't really continued with that meme, she hasn't apologized, nor should she.
Sometimes you get what you give.
Having said that, keep up getting the word out. It really is a loud (very) extremist fringe. Remember though they do a lot more than talk.
"Yet, unlike the near daily
"Yet, unlike the near daily headlines emanating from the Islamic world, there are no records of practicing Christians, Buddhists, or Hindus crashing explosives-laden vehicles into the buildings"
Thats just stupid. I didnt know that the basques, the irish and the tamils were muslim. The RIRA set of a bomb just a few days ago. Nad they are catholic.
Are the passages in the
Are the passages in the Koran describing violence and the violence to be done to the enemies of Islam meant to be understood as metaphors? Or are they meant to be understood as the word of god, straight and true?
@619 visitor, There seems to
@619 visitor,
There seems to be some internal debate within Islam as to whether the hate starts in the 7th century or the 9th when the conquests were stalled or rolled back, in no small part because of constant battles of succession and internal divisions.
I'm not a scholar on the Koran nor the Bible, nor do I want to be. There is a leather 7th century Koran in Central Asia that was written within the lifetime of the companions of the Prophet. I'd love to see how that lines up with what's being taught in Saudi schools today. Because it's today that counts, that's what people are responsible for, that and the future they shape.
The relativistic arguments advanced above about Ann Coulter - who really wasn't bothering any Muslim until 3000 of her neighbors were literally snuffed out - the PIRA, etc.... well...there's the question of words vs deeds of mass murder, and I don't think the PIRA wants global Irish Maoist domination. Then there's the question of what you are responsible for - your actions, and yes the actions of a group to which you claim to belong. It's also a great excuse in some quarters - and the Left can be counted on to go along.
I can't think of any jihadist whether current or recanted that denies global Caliphate and world submission to Islam is not the goal. Grievances and a list of complaints (Bin Laden complains about the environment!) are just ruses.
The good news - maybe - is that the vast majority of the community they work for turned against it once they saw it.
Maybe. It's rather late. Right now BTW the USA is convulsed in it's own politics - and I do mean convulsed. Don't look for much from the Western Hemisphere except maintain and hope to muddle through.
I don't think it would be wise however to hit us with any real force any time soon. Nope.
Or CNAS might not have to look farther for COIN or tribal engagement then across the Potomac.
I can't think of any
I can't think of any jihadist whether current or recanted that denies global Caliphate and world submission to Islam is not the goal.
So? That's like pointing out that Mormons and/or Christians have a goal of converting the entire world to Christianity. It's there, but it's not exactly going to happen, and most of the above would dismiss it as a fantasy on the part of the super-devout.
Grievances and a list of complaints (Bin Laden complains about the environment!) are just ruses.
If the grievances are what is motivating people to join and support such groups (and they are), then they're hardly ruses, your paranoid fantasies aside.
I'm not a scholar on the Koran nor the Bible, nor do I want to be
Then where do you get off lecturing people on what Islam or the Koran supposedly are? You know very little, and what you do know actually detracts from your understanding of the situation (as shown by your post).
ummm the killing of
ummm the killing of apostates is definitely allowed in the Hadiths (Bukhari for sure). The Quran, I will have to take a look again, but i can definitely quote verses stating that the apostates are destined for the hellfire. The Quran itself has a whole Surah entitled "the Hypocrites", people not explicitly declaring themselves to be non Muslim, but per the Quran do not truly follow the principles of Islam. So the fact that such a fatwa was issued is of no surprise. Al-Qaeda is on solid ground to have an agenda against hypocrites/apostates.
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