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The dysfunctional relationship of death
I really serious (heart) the way BBC Urdu's Mohammed Hanif can get his point across about US complicity in the mess that is Pakistan without sounding whiny, crazy or stuck deep in the depths of denial.
Check out his op-ed from the NYT to get an understanding of why Pakistanis might have reservations about US intentions.
"The ISI and the C.I.A. have colluded twice in the destruction of Afghanistan. Their complicity has brought war to Pakistan's cities. After every round of cloak-and-dagger games, they behave like a squabbling couple who keep getting back together and telling the world that they are doing it for the children's sake. But whenever these two reunite, a lot of children's lives are wrecked"
"Lately, Americans seem to have woken up to the fact that there is something called a Parliament and a civil society in Pakistan. But even so, it seems that Americans are courting the same ruling class - the military elite's civilian cousins - that has thrived on American aid and obviously wants an even closer relationship with Washington."
I'm working on a power point presentation depiction of how the America - Pakistani Army - Pakistani bureaucracy - Pakistani politicians and Pakistani public nexus works.
I promise it won't look as bad as... well, you know.. this..
But, if you are looking to cut to the chase, I'll be promoting the idea of engaging with the public directly. Simple yet utterly revolutionary in the field of Western foreign politics - unfortunately.
okfine. I really like this
okfine.
I really like this post.
plus aleph nought.
"I'll be promoting the idea
"I'll be promoting the idea of engaging with the public directly. Simple yet utterly revolutionary in the field of Western foreign politics - unfortunately."
About time. We should have an office dedicated to nothing else globally.
What might be much more
What might be much more enlightening would be a study which explains why our choice of allies in this region seems limited to tinpot dictators, kleptocratic rulers, conmen and thugs?
Especially for those who still believe in COIN.
Engage the Public directly.
Engage the Public directly.
OK. When Bush tried that with pushing Democracy for the ME, he was pilloried and by who?
What about dealing with the de facto government as the legitimate one, or at least as ....the de facto govt. We did not improve our lot in Vietnam by destabilizing and destroying Diem. Nor the lot of the average Vietnamese.
We're not gonna change Pakistan. I suppose we could contribute to making it even worse. They chose their government, actively or by passively accepting it.
"explains why our choice of allies in this region seems limited to tinpot dictators, kleptocratic rulers, conmen and thugs?"
Because that's who runs most of the world, for most of human history. And who runs that part of the world. Forever.
Oh, and here's the flow chart for US/PAK relations, simpler as promised: $$$$$$$$$$$$
Elf ... "When Bush tried
Elf
...
"When Bush tried that with pushing Democracy for the ME"
but Bush was pushing western-style democracy.
total epic fail, because there is no substrate.
Like the Pew study and Iraq both prove, when muslims are empowered to vote, they will vote for shariah.
what is wrong with encouraging representative islamic democracy?
"what is wrong with
"what is wrong with encouraging representative islamic democracy?"
We did in both Astan and Iraq. That's basically what they have. As you may have noticed, it doesn't work either. There is also the long tension - by which I mean since the days of the prophet - between the Islamic, the Secular, and the Tribal. And it's never been worked out, since the Islamic wants the entire thing, and the interests of the tribal and secular run counter to that. And people will always pursue their own interests.
The only solution that seems to stand the test of time is the Caliph - secular and religious authority in one. But as this always leads to the predictable wars of succession that plague Monarchies, corruption, misrule, decay that plague all tyranny ....and the just Muslim wants just and honest rule from those in power.
Until it's him.
Cut out the middleman!
Cut out the middleman! Lovely idea. I've got an even better idea: US citizenship for all Pakistanis. Now.
After all, USG already treats the citizens of these other "countries" as subjects of its own external provinces. Rome went through a similar transformation, as it extended Roman citizenship by stages to all Italians, all Gauls, and ultimately every last woad-daubed Pict in the ass end of Caledonia. And we know how that worked out.
Of course, USG could also grant Pakistan its independence and treat its government as an actual sovereign government, according to Vattel's law of nations. Is there anyone else on this board who's actually read Vattel? Frankly, it would shock me. But thanks to Google Books, it's never too late.
Needless to say, "engaging directly" with the citizens of another country is to the classical international law of Vattel roughly as a dildo party is to the Holy Order of Carmelite Nuns. But that's okay! We've moved beyond these silly old dead white men. We don't need no stupid classical international law. Why, look how well our modern, high-tech, 21st-century replacement works.
The Caliph! Hopefully the
The Caliph! Hopefully the Rabbit and Londonstani will join Elf, Osama and I in embracing the minaret-tipped dream of a new Caliphate. It's never too late for the East to rise again. My daughter will also sign up - she's a big fan of "Aladdin." Why can't we all just get along?
liar liar pants on
liar liar pants on fire.....you did not.
Let us review-- the Bush Doctrine attempted to "implant western-style deomcracy".
Iraq evolved into an islamic state when the Bush Doctrine FAILED.
You did everything you could to PREVENT Iraq becoming an islamic state.
COIN is just localized Bush Doctrine, and that means local fail.
@Rabia, What exactly is the
@Rabia,
What exactly is the "Bush Doctrine"? It's really not a stupid question, unless you let HeadLine News and TMZ handle your definitions. Perhaps you mean the MSM view that it's implanting Western Style Democracy on Iraq.
OK. If by that you mean multiple political parties, a free Press, and fairly honest elections - we succeeded in doing that in Iraq. And then they wrote into their own laws that Islam was the Official Religion, and Sharia the basis for their legal code. We let them do it, although I doubt if we thought it was a ideal outcome.
If you mean pre-emption rather than retaliation for severe threats - I think we made that point as well.
Let's remember Bush never went out and published his "Doctrine". The term was coined by Charles Krauthammer.
Oh wait you answered it.. "COIN is just localized Bush Doctrine, and that means local fail."
Really? What exactly do COIN and the Bush Doctrine share in common, other than force?
Believes the De Facto govt
Believes the De Facto govt is the govt in fact, and hence legitimate. If we don't like them, we can go to war with them....
Engage directly with the people: Moldbug, don't make it complicated. It means the average Pakistani wants to go on the dole and get checks direct from the US Taxpayer. If we can implement your suggestion about Raj Rules (hanging) then when can get something going here....
"the MSM view that it's
"the MSM view that it's implanting Western Style Democracy on Iraq."
wow more epic lying.
NYT: “The mistaken mission creep in Afghanistan during the Bush years was moving from counterterrorism after 9/11 — to destroy Al Qaeda — to nation building and the objective of implanting Western-style democracy,” said Robert Blackwill, who coordinated the policy for Mr. Bush at the National Security Council. “Given the history and culture of Afghanistan, that was always many bridges too far.”
That is a VERBATIM QUOTE from Robert Blackwill.
What is wrong with you Elf? We elected a man so profoundly, deeply stupid that he nearly wrecked our whole country.
just admit it.
"What exactly do COIN and
"What exactly do COIN and the Bush Doctrine share in common, other than force?"
COIN is an attempt to stand up localized western-style democracy at the village level with bribes.
just an innocent
just an innocent question......do you all think that Bush will talk about "the Bush Doctrine" in his upcoming rehabilitation book tour?
i hope he does......right before midterms.
:)
I think the essence of the
I think the essence of the Bush doctrine was we're going to get them before they get us. And yes, if we had to take a country we were going to try and introduce democracy and some degree of Liberalization.
Robert Blackwill is saying that was mission creep, and it was a mistake. That quote says it was mission creep. Not the doctrine or the intent. Mission creep: your original mission grows, usually into nation building.
As I said before here many times, my war lasts an hour. That's the ICBMs' time of flight.
Bush made a mistake not doing just that, but his Liberal and Christian tendencies got in the way. Ironic.
Elf, Don't miss the Private
Elf,
Don't miss the Private Journal of Henry Francis Brooke.
What would General Brooke think of PC-COIN? Well, then, that's pretty much what I think. I got to fire a Glock once about fifteen years ago, and I've never been east of Nicosia. Therefore, out of respect to the expertise and memory of Henry Francis Brooke, I will defer to his views on both war and Pashtoons. Oddly enough, they're a lot like yours.
Has Exum read Brooke? This is not the right question. The right question is: has he read anyone, who's read anyone, who's read Brooke? "Maybe," says my magic 8-ball. "But probably not." Who will come for the juicebox historians? They can't come soon enough for me.
this is how the history
this is how the history books will define the Bush Doctrine.
"the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a potential or perceived threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate; a policy of spreading democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating terrorism; and a willingness to unilaterally pursue U.S. military interests"
Bush a liberal? jamais de ma vie.
Bush is a WEC, a primitive evolutionary form of homo sapiens sapiens.
Have you heard of the savannah principle?
i think you war pimps hitched your wagon to the wrong star.....there are two horrendous asswhupping coming in the next decade for conservatives.....one from the demographic timer, and one from science.
there is an emergent body of work that will prove a measurable significant gap in between group IQ and g between liberal and conservative mindsets.
Do you think there will be IQ riots, Elf, or will conservatives just quietly change their voter registration to look smarter?
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