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How to Patronize
I like both Anatol Lieven and Tom Ricks and always listen to them both on matters related to Afghanistan, even when I disagree with them. (I currently disagree, for example, with Tom's assessments of both Iraq and Afghanistan.) I first met Tom, actually, in a tent at Bagram in between missions during Operation Anaconda in March 2002, and we now work together at the Little Think Tank That Could. And I always really enjoyed listening to the well-traveled Lieven speak on Afghanistan, Pakistan and Central Asia when I lived in London.
I was disappointed, though, to listen to Lieven's broadside against Ricks here (at the 17:00 mark, to be specific). A more careful graduate student would never criticize a professor at the department from where he hopes to be granted a degree in the near future, but Lieven looks foolish when he brusquely dismisses Tom as a "Washington commentator" (what, because the view of Kabul is clearer from the Strand?) proffering "rubbish ... unqualified garbage" who has never "lived in an Afghan village" and is thus apparently unable to say anything of substance on Afghanistan. Lieven comes out of this looking bad, and not only because, ahem, Tom GREW UP IN AFGHANISTAN and spent 25 years covering the U.S. military at war. Lieven adopts the most condescending tone in this interview. As a public service to this blog's many readers in the United Kingdom, listen to this and realize that when you start speaking this way and using phrases like "obviously" and "of course" (not to mention "Northern Ireland"), we Yanks usually stop listening to whatever you're trying to tell us.
Anyway, even though I manage to disagree with both Tom and Lieven on Afghanistan at the moment, I came out of listening to this interview thinking a little less of a man whose reporting and analysis I normally respect.
I think that was Lieven's
I think that was Lieven's old Cambridge debating style coming out, and yes, it is uniquely British.
But from the way he asked, "what exactly is Rick's qualifications to talk about Afghanistan?", it actually sounded to me like he wasn't that familiar with Ricks or his reporting. I'm a bit surprised to hear this if it is true, given how much Lieven drops references to the journalist club in 1980s Pakistan.
Lieven's vitriol, which he has expressed before, seemed to be a knee jerk reaction against Rick's perspective that the Taliban's lack of popularity works in our favor, and this opinion is definitely shared by other talking heads (though of course Ricks is really more qualified).
I guess the competition
I guess the competition between national-security-journalists-who-become-scholars is fierce.
I also disagree with Anatol's tone - he can be a bit caustic sometimes. And clever line on the Strand, BUT to be fair (saying this as a former student of Anatol's who also disagreed with him often), Anatol has made regular research trips (I think at least yearly) to the AfPak border region for quite a number of years now. And he criticizes others in his department who do not do field research on the countries they claim expertise on.
One more point: you might have made more headway on this issue (and perhaps on getting Anatol to write a brief note of apology to Ricks) with a private email to Anatol rather than a public blog post.
This is hardly the first
This is hardly the first time Anatol Lieven has been accused of being patronizing and dismissive.
Ricks didn't grow up in
Ricks didn't grow up in Afghanistan. He grew up in an American bubble in Kabul when his father was working there. He saw Afghans from the window of his chaffeur-driven car. He never learnt any of the languages of the place. Obviously, it is you who is twisting words and facts around now. Ricks is the one who looks ridiculous: Iraq, case in point.
As with Rory Stewart, I
As with Rory Stewart, I sense in Lieven's voice, more a tone of exasperation than condescension. The need to constantly struggle against a ridiculously optimistic messaging machine that says all's fine on the frontier, can be incredibly frustrating. Just go back and listen to Stewart vs Nagl and Biddle at the CFR hearing. Independent thinkers like Stewart and Lieven are almost brought to tears when they hit the wall of Washington talking-point clones.
As for Tom Ricks: well yes, he spent a couple of his teenage years in Afghanistan in the 1970's. I don't think that's much of a qualification for analyzing that society after it has endured more than 30 years of war - and nor is being cocooned with the general staff as a Defense correspondent.
He saw Afghans from the
He saw Afghans from the window of his chaffeur-driven car?
Ricks sounds like a regular Jim 'Jamie' Graham!
Was Ricks "presented" to Mohammed Daoud Khan? I wonder if he sang or danced for him?
You didnt ever once mention
You didnt ever once mention Rick's point that Lieven disagrees with. You would have been more convincing if you had tried that and let us decide for ourselves. DIdnt happen.
Actually, I agree with
Actually, I agree with Lieven. Ricks said he was more optimistic about Afghanistan than Iraq.
Funny how Rick's FP bio
Funny how Rick's FP bio doesn't say when or for how long he lived in Afghanistan.
Why mention it if the aim wasn't to have people jump to the conclusion that he has special insight due to "living" there.
Failing to explain exactly what "growing up" means seems intentionally deceptive.
Lieven is of course correct. The entire Afghan enterprise has been colored by optimism bordering on the delusional. Our allies (currently) are very conservative Muslims and the odd closeted communist and our enemies are very, very conservative Muslims. Not much to choose from really and of course in the 80's we were quite happy to support the same people we're now hunting with drones.
I hate it when they talk
I hate it when they talk like that and I'm from the same country.
"As a public service to this
"As a public service to this blog's many readers in the United Kingdom, listen to this and realize that when you start speaking this way and using phrases like "obviously" and "of course" (not to mention "Northern Ireland"), we Yanks usually stop listening to whatever you're trying to tell us"
Fighting condescension with condescension.
"As a public service to this
"As a public service to this blog's many readers in the United Kingdom, listen to this and realize that when you start speaking this way and using phrases like "obviously" and "of course" (not to mention "Northern Ireland"), we Yanks usually stop listening to whatever you're trying to tell us."
To paraphrase you - I came out of reading this thinking a little less of a man whose reporting and analysis I normally respect.
AM has a point here. There
AM has a point here. There is a particularly British way of talking about US policies in Afghanistan and Iraq, not to mention US foreign policy in general, that often comes off as a bit patronizing. . . .
British patronization only
British patronization only affects American anglophiles with a colonial inferiority complex, classic American need for validation from the Brits, and the Irish as well. Honestly, AM, you're from TN and you say "we Yanks"; have some pride. We Southerners might have had hookworm ridden grandparents, the Klan, obesity, and Pentecostalism, but we are not Yankees. Never, ever tolerate that term from an Englishman, most of whom, in my experience, appreciate the fact that we are not Yanks, particularly after a drawl-laden dressing down.
I'd agree with other commentators, Lieven isn't patronizing, only exasperated.
can I patronie a bit about
can I patronie a bit about stuff like this guy getting huge military contracts?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/us/24arms.html?ref=efraim_e_diveroli
Are they not also
Are they not also criticizing UK policy in Afghanistan and Iraq by extension? The sad truth is there is barely any point mentioning UK foreign policy in these areas, you may as well go straight to the source.
Why are the author's words of advice extended to the whole population and not just the specific few commentators who have offended him? Lieven is just a bit posh, please don't take an individual's personal failings and use them to characterize 60 million people who happen to have been born/ live within the same borders.
Apologies for taking this to heart, but, having lost a cousin in the troubles, It was largely the suggestion that I shouldn't talk about Northern Ireland that blew my fuse.
Lord High Sockpuppet, Yank is a pretty dated term here, most of us now refer to you guys as those electors of magnificent foreign policy decision makers.
I think it's the attempt to
I think it's the attempt to talk as if the lessons of Op Banner were the beginning and end of all matters COIN that irks. Esp. after the fiasco of our time in Basra.
I'm always tickled by the
I'm always tickled by the "Brits handed over Basra to the militias" indictment. The whole country was handed to militias in 2002 with the CPA installing them in government and the vital ministries from early 2004 onward. The task of providing them with air-support then fell to the US military.
America is awesome. We all
America is awesome. We all know that. It's just odd when our friends across the pond imply that, if only we were more like them, we'd be better off. Then again, perhaps it's not odd since we encourage plenty of folks to be more like us.
America leaves much to be
America leaves much to be desired, but it is better than a good many places in the World. Of course places like Zimbabwe or Poland set the bar pretty low, so let's not pat ourselves on the back just yet.
Our "friends" across the pond are a bunch of insular, defeated, confused former imperialists who are trapped by their own conflicting ideologies (cultural relativism/ and a dying neo-Puritanical need to reform the world and preach to others which dubious notion we Americans gleefully took), maintain a neo-feudal system ceremonially presided over by a bunch of German upstarts who happened to be Protestant at the right time. What our friends have going for them is a thankfully dying legitimacy in matters political and cultural. An idiot with a posh accent will still be accorded respect in far too many circles because of said accent. I'm undecided as to whether they are more successful at manipulating the US or is it the other way round.
"Regarding America, I like
"Regarding America, I like to think of myself as the hapless inhabitant of a troglodyte and clergy-ridden land ruled over by stunning mendacities with a penchant for feel good b.s. and bellicosity."
Dude, ...Wow.. Are you the 41 Year Old Virgin?
Lieven makes a reasonable
Lieven makes a reasonable point about Ricks's expertise and argument though. He just comes off poorly. On the merits, I don't think he's off the mark though. Ricks is too optimistic too often -- and without a good reason. Lieven sounds exasperated and impolite but he sounds more correct than Ricks, not because of his accent but because a lot of Ricks's ideas on Afghanistan are hard to defend. Lieven has plenty of gaps in his knowledge and analysis as well.
Where "Yanks" are concerned, as a New England Yankee myself, I'd ask Abu Muqawama to speak for himself (with all due respect). Some us real Yankees say "obviously" and "of course" and sound patronizing. That's how we talk and some of us look down on Americans with a drawl. No Americans should take offense to an Englishman's patronizing tone or high English. That accent (and the Royal Marines) is what they've got left. Let them have that and know that their relevance largely depends on our bumbling, half-literate, ungentlemanly country unless they want to become Europeans. Post-imperial life bites. No need for Americans to feel bad because the British are bitter. We'll be that way one day too.
AirManEric, I think a great
AirManEric,
I think a great many Brits would prefer a stronger alignment with Europe - but that is not the opinion of the British political classes.
Slightly off-topic (but not totally); as Americans continue to bitch about the corruption of the "host government" partner in the "Third-party counterinsurgency" effort (gotta love the language) you have to ask whether US agencies are even on the same side as each other.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/world/asia/26kabul.html?_r=2&ref=globa...
Key Karzai Aide in Corruption Inquiry Is Linked to C.I.A.
There are so many money-quotes (no pun intended) in there it's hard to decide what to leave out.
"I think a great many Brits
"I think a great many Brits would prefer a stronger alignment with Europe - but that is not the opinion of the British political classes." I think the polling numbers show hostility to even the idea of intergration. It's only the political elite that keeps us a part of the E.U.
Some (most) people here are
Some (most) people here are being puerile. Forget the Anglo-American angle. This lack of respect from one serious analyst to another (and, if you disagree with that assessment of Ricks, then you are seriously just a pissy ideologue who refuses grok respectful engagement between intellectual opponents. I say this as one who has developed serious differences with Ricks over the last few years.) is totally unprofessional, and bespeaks a real character flaw on the part of the one failing to comport himself as an honorable intellectual. Private email? Why? This behavior deserves to be made an example of. It is not the way professionals speak of each other. Let him feel public shame and issue an apology. I predict it is forthcoming.
I read this post- and some
I read this post- and some of the comments- before I listened to the interview. I found myself thinking, "If he didn't have that accent, I'd consider this one of the more honest analyses I've heard." Something to think about...
thanks for sharing
thanks for sharing
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