Abu Muqawama: Post
Abu Muqawama retains its autonomy and the views and beliefs expressed within the blog do not reflect those of CNAS. Abu Muqawama retains the right to delete comments that include words that incite violence; are predatory, hateful, or intended to intimidate or harass; or degrade people on the basis of gender, race, class, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability. In summary, don't be a jerk.
Investigating American Muslims
We need to investigate radicalization in the United States. Peter King's hearings today, though, endanger U.S. counter-terrorism and counter-radicalization efforts in two ways: (1) They run the risk of alienating American Muslims, who have thus far proven -- and will continue to be -- instrumental in countering Islamist terror in the United States by working with law enforcement officials to weed out terror plots within their communities. (2) They run the risk of discrediting other efforts to investigate the causes of and trends in radicalization.
Also, I also want to take this opportunity to remind this blog's readers of the definition of terrorism:
Terrorism is "the threat or use of physical coercion, primarily against noncombatants, especially civilians, to create fear in order to achieve various political objectives." (O'Neill, 2005)
Here's one example of a terrorist attack. Here is another. Here is another. Here is another. And here is another.
Terrorism can be employed by any individual, sect or creed. And in the eyes of this blogger, at least, it is morally indefensible no matter who does it.
Another example:
Another example: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/09/washington.bomb.suspect/index.ht...
While I would like to believe
While I would like to believe that the American Muslim community has been instrumental in counting terrorism, I have also recently read that is not the case and the FBI has said they don't get much help from them (see for example, here: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/03/08/2011-03-08_muslims_a... )
Is there any evidence that they are in fact helping LE?
There's only one reason that
There's only one reason that I can see to have a hearing about such a matter on the floor of the US Senate, and that's as a PR stunt. This hearing cannot improve the Senate's understanding of the issue; if they really want to get to the bottom of the question, they can hold a private hearing conducted by experts in the field. Why hold it publicly? To scare Americans about Islam and boost the poll ratings of certain senators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9066
On May 19, 1942, during World War II, Japanese Americans were compelled to move into relocation camps by Civilian Restrictive Order No. 1, 8 Fed. Reg. 982. This order, and other similar orders, were based upon Executive Order 9066 (February 19, 1942).
Fred Korematsu was a Japanese-American man who decided to stay in San Leandro, California and knowingly violate Civilian Exclusion Order No. 34 of the U.S. Army. Fred Korematsu argued that the Executive Order 9066 was unconstitutional and that it violated the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. He was arrested and convicted. No question was raised as to Korematsu's loyalty to the United States. The Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction, and the Supreme Court granted certiorari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
For us to battle the problem of rogue / lone wolf Muslim terrorists, active cells within our boarders and terror camps within out boarders, Internment Camps could be an alternative. Or would they be a bad idea?
Franklin D. Roosevelt thought the Executive Order and Internment Camps were a good idea in 1942, so what makes them a bad idea now? When the Supreme Court made a decision in Korematsu vs. USA, they did not rule EO Unconstitutional, but they did award Japanese family's $5,000 each, for their internment in camps during World War II. Most Japanese lot everything they owned while in internment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States
The attacks listed below could have been much worse or in greater numbers, if those who were in Internment Camps were roaming free around the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_North_America_during_World_War_II
What are you thoughts folks?
Thumbs up or down for internment camps for Muslims in the United States?
According to our Supreme Court, Internment Camps are not unlawful for those of a any ethnicity or group, our country fights in a war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States
What a stink..... Everyone
What a stink.....
Everyone has their own idea of how to do things, and we can not agree....
........so all we get done is pissing all over each other's foot.
Terrorism can be employed by any individual, sect or creed. And in the eyes of this blogger, at least, it is morally indefensible no matter who does it.
Is there anything wrong with just talking about one vector ?
In the past twenty years what group of people have caused the most harm to Americans ? Oil prices, world wide instability, cost of war and security..................
Lets look around the globe ...... AQ !
Get real.
PS.....The Japanese argument that liberals use does not have legs. No one has talked about Islamic Internment.
...........Your moral argument Andrew does not have legs cause we still have not heard the out come of the hearings !
...........Stop pissing and start inputting ways to make the process better. Get on board.
The examples of terrorist
The examples of terrorist attacks you listed obviously don't fall into Peter King's definition of terrorism. His definition has a caveat from the O'Neill definition in that it exempts attacks conducted against the government of the United Kingdom if the attacker(s) were non-Muslims.
Perhaps the US should investigate Congressmen, like King, who have admitted to supporting declared terrorist organizations (the IRA). Surely its illegal to support terrorism?
Your 4 hyperlinked wiki
Your 4 hyperlinked wiki entries of IRA bombings proves that terror is the tool of the weak against the strong, of any faith. The difference being that Irishman have continually fought and died for centuries against Britain. Claiming ancestry from Scotland, Exum assumes that Irishmen should have succumbed, groveled, and knuckled under to the weight of the British Empire, just like his kin.
Irishmen refused such humilation. At every chance they fought back and suffered greatly for their thirst for freedom. IRA tactics of the 20th century were certainly terror, no different than the tactics used by the African National Congress and Stern Gang. Yet Exum would never equate terror with the ANC or Stern Gang, too hot politically, much easier to bash Catholics, and might fuck-up his chances to become a federal bureaucrat.
Exum is a Catholic hater, in particular an Irish Catholic hater.
Muslim attacks against America are a new phenomena unlike the long history of conflict of Ireland versus Britain. ... and please refrain from the Barbary wars rhetoric.
You know, if we all get in
You know, if we all get in the cart and no one is pulling......no one is going to get anywhere.
What would happen if POTUS declared military action on Liyba......
..............and the whole military hid in Illinois?
LOL.
What a joke..... Terrorism
What a joke.....
Terrorism is "the threat or use of physical coercion, primarily against noncombatants, especially civilians, to create fear in order to achieve various political objectives." (O'Neill, 2005)
Think some people would say that about the IRS and current methods of the Democratic party.....seen Wisconsin lately?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71gsnLfsbbM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rav9ijyyZk
Exum is a Catholic hater, in
Exum is a Catholic hater, in particular an Irish Catholic hater?
He is?
The definition Exum gave of
The definition Exum gave of terrorism was value neutral as was the use of his examples of IRA bombing. He was attempting to make about about Rep. Peter King's involvement with the IRA support charity, NORAID. King is the chairman of the body conducting the hearing in question. Calling Exum anti-Catholic or anti-Irish based on this post is more than a little ridiculous.
Concentration camps for
Concentration camps for Muslims?
A worldwide anti-american muslim conspiracy?
IRS and the Wisconsin rally as equal to Al Qaeda?
This comment thread is pretty out there...
Vistor...... You hit the nail
Vistor......
You hit the nail on the head...........
About as far out there has the unfairness of the King's hearings.....
...........good try. LOL.
John Barry I was born a
John Barry
I was born a Catholic of Irish descent and have been reading this blog for years. Its absolute BS to say that Exum is an anti-catholic bigot.
If Peter King had supported the stern gang, I would have expected Andrew bring that up. Same as he did Bridgette whats-her-names support of the SLA the other day.
However, of the linked attacks, perhaps being pedantic but they were all either AIMED at property rather than non-combatants (warnings were given in all cases*) or, in the case of the aldershot bombing were on a military base, and in any event carried out by the Official IRA, who I dont think King had any link to.
*That they were stupidly reckless I would not argue with. And I would cite the PIRA campaign as being a pointless waste of human life
Their is one thing missing in
Their is one thing missing in this discussion.......
We have a stood witness to the cruelty that happens in the Middle East. Don't ask me why, but their politics seems to attact people. Not sure if it is just a liberal pastime to collect causes.
Here are some questions to ask yourself.
Am I being threatened with Federal arrest if I do not submit to full body scan at Airports because of Timothy McVeigh ?
.
Are my library records and phone calls open to investigation without warrant by the FBI because of Loughner ?
.
Did Seung-Hui Cho shoot up the Ft. Hood Army base ?
.
Is Kazmierczak the reason why the US has spent a TRILLION dollars in Iraq-Afghanistan ?
.
Did McVeigh, Loughner, Cho.......act together as a group or were they completely independent?
.
Is Anwar al-Awlaki an American or Muslim first? Was Anwar al-Awlaki teaching others to react and share his views? Who are the best people to determine this and when?
Seems to me that Americans are giving up a huge amount of liberity, our way of life for some reason.
What what is that reason ? Who ran commercial jets up the US's trade center?
Someone has an image issue. What are they going to do about it?
In the ME people piss on each other, they kill each other, they are racist as hell, they kill Jews, they kill Christians, they kill children, they torture, they beat, and they rape. Seems to be a national ideological pastime, I do not want that level of organization imported to America. America has it's own issues with out the tribal undertones.
Every American has a duty to help their country. The Americans from the ME have more knowledege about were they came from, they speak the language, they can relate to the people.
What is wrong to ask them to help ?
If we are going to go back to WW2 and talk Japanese internment camps....................
..............The majority of Americans in 1940's were Germans-Americans and those Germans VOLUNTEERED to killed their cousins by the thousands. It was an honor to wear the uniform..........is the honor the same today?......how many volunteers do you have today?
What side are you on ? Now is the time to choose.
Obama all but ignored the Ft.Hood shooter (first anniversary of Ft Hood he was more worried about India than the US), but Obama immortalized Loughner by having a rock concert after the Arizona shooting. Why did Obama do that? The main difference between Loughner, McVeigh, Cho, Kazmierczak and AQ is the level of impact that the people/groups have had on American freedom. Loughner is a fucking idoit that should not wear the American label anymore, AQ is a international terrorist orginzation that runs drugs for money and kills people for ideology whom BTW are MUSLIM.
If you are going after the Italian Mafia, wouldn't it be smart to ask a first generation Italian-American, who speaks the language and understands the culture, to help?
I do not know of any Muslim-Americans, Afro-Americans, Japanese-Americans, Mexican-Americans, German-Americans, or.........what ever-American.
All I know are Americans.
What is wrong with the King hearings ?
Nothing.
It is not any more different than my father to volunteering to kill his German cousins during WW2. Interesting. Person that saved my father's life as a child in the US in the 1930's was arrested for being a German spy in the the 1940's while my father was off killing his cousins. There were a lot of Schmidts that became Smiths.
What if every American went and hid in Illinois during WW2? (OHHHHH, I might upset my cousin ! OMG.....hide....hide....hide.....LOL)
Duty to country.
What is the DNC's agenda, stopping AQ or stepping on the 2nd amendment? .......DNC been stepping on the 2nd since '68 ? Obama said it before the elections in '08. Reed held the issue until after the mid-terms so not to activate the NRA. Administration has been changing regulations, stopped imports from WW2 collectables form Korea, and we heard the Obama 2008 echo in the NPR Schiller discussion (bible thump'in, gun tot'in). After AZ we had magazine bans. Pelosi even said the DNC needs to regulate more.
I do not see one person's rights being taken away by Peter King, yet I see many rights being taken away by AQ and the DNC.
Some one has an image problem and it ain't Peter King.
.
Who are the best people to fix that image problem ?
Germans in America fixed their image problem......they went and killed the bastard problem maker. The German community fingered the spy that saved my father's childhood life.
Which side are you on? Preserving American Rights or AQ ?
I would like Representative
I would like Representative King to apologize to the parents of the kids the IRA killed at Warrington in 1993. That's about the era King was palling around with Gerry Adams.
As he clearly believes in collective guilt it would be good for him to unburden his soul.
Jesus, Ex - the tin foil hat
Jesus, Ex - the tin foil hat brigade is out in FORCE on this one. I find it odd that people who have likely never been on the wrong end of an EFP or fired a weapon in anger are the first ones ready to round up the moos-lims and put them in internment camps.
Or, maybe this whole thing is the most consistent trolling ever (Ex...y u no ban these people?). Considering that this blog focuses on small wars, I'm just not sure how the dude likening the protests in Wisconsin to terrorism adds to the discussion. Bottom line - whoever the "visitor" is that keeps including these "......................" in his/her crazy-ass rants needs to take a knee, face out, and drink water.
Re the King ["Too many
Re the King ["Too many mosques in America"] Hearings,
Abu Muqawama points to the main reasons why these hearings were not a good idea AS CONSTRUCTED. Even if the subject had been Muslim radicalization only, but with serious witnesses, the reaction from both Muslims and other religious communities would have been, I believe, rather different. The experts at West Point's CTC, the group around Robert Pape at Chicago, Jarret Brachman, and many others, including the NCTC have the knowledge and analytical skills to discuss this issue accurately and intelligently.
There are plenty of Muslim scholars who also could have talked about the way that mosques and websites manipulate and distort certain aspects of both Islam and the immigrant experience in a way that could easily influence young people in the direction of extremism. UCLA''s Dr. Khaled Abu El Fadl, a highly-respected scholar of Islamic Law has a very informative book entitled "Authority and Authoritarians" about the type of people who run many of the mosques in the worst interpretations of Islam and illiberal attitude towards diversity of opinion, one of the hallmarks of Islam. About El Fadl has had serious conflicts with them and the organizations that they belong to. There is also Dr. Akbar Ahmed, who counducted with young American researchers an intensive tour of the varieties of Muslim communities in the US, from the Sufi, the Shia, the progressive, the traditional conservative, and the paranoid anti-democratic ones, [my description] etc. of all ethnicities.
If one goes back to the early announcements of King's intention to hold the hearings and the people who were either "advising him" or his intended witnesses, it was clear that there was an agenda beyond just trying to understand a domestic national security problem. There are enough exposes of Steve Emerson, Pam Geller, Robert Spencer and other such "experts" and the organizations they run to understand this. They were disinvited and screamed "coward" at King, who then announced tthat his witnesses would be Muslims, and then listed Walid Phares! After HE was outed in the press, he was left with Dr. Jasser, the favorite Muslim for Fox News. [Media Matters for America has an interesting report on these characters.]
It was very unfortunate that the two witnesses who recounted their own families' tragic experiences and Sheriff Baca were caught in the partisan crossfire. In sum, if King's objective was to help his colleagues understand radicalization, he could not have gone about it more ineffectively. What he did, instead, was to throw light on, through the controversy that it caused, the agenda of the organized anti-Muslim crowd [who in the end were disinvited] and the politicians who support them. As for Muslim Americans, they can take solace in the support they found within the interfaith community and among Americans of other backgrounds who have seen this kind of bigotry in action before. If King is capable of embarassment, then his own double standard re terrorism and the type of "experts" he surrounds himself with should be cause for reflection.
Nothing to see here!!
Nothing to see here!!
Muslims in America will regret Liberals "help", as has every group that they ever "helped".
Does Islamic terrorism pose
Does Islamic terrorism pose the most organized, most dangerous terrorist threat to the US? If it does, then how does any lesser or potential threat discredit efforts to investigate the primary threat?
Is it inconceivable that well-intentioned investigators can discern between fringe radicals and mainstream innocents? Are not opponents carried away by hubris and hyperbole in suggesting that the slightest suspicion equals a quest to intern?
Andrew, you underestimate
Andrew, you underestimate American Muslims. It would be ludicrous to suggest that you, as a Christian, would cease cooperating with law enforcement if they began investigating abortionist shooters/white supremacists/Quran burners/any other kooks who claim to act in Christ's name. What makes Muslims any different?
@V 844: "Does Islamic
@V 844: "Does Islamic terrorism pose the most organized, most dangerous terrorist threat to the US?"
I don't know what metric other than body count is required, and Hell I don't care. You are correct in your questions, V.
@Terry Jones,
Well Christians aren't doing it in any appreciable numbers, McVeigh was motivated not by Christianity but anti-government bias. The IRA since AM seems to want to bring that up is a Nationalist, ethnic Irish organization (founded in no small part by Protestants - Tone Wolfe?) whose very flag and creed are non sectarian. Oh, and also...they didn't blow up NYC and the Pentagon. Nor did Catholics take to the street cheering and waving swords when OK city went up, or for that matter any civilian massacre in the UK. Nor did the Catholic Clerics advocate Crusade for the last few Hundred Years, and the Crusades were a reaction to invasion and threat. In fact they excommunicated the IRA - mind you many Iraqi clerics did the same with the Takfiri. It's a real threat, it killed dozens of us in the last two years, thousands 10 years ago. It continues to murder our Brothers overseas.
It's strange that the King Hearings can be judged as hurting the effort so quickly, wouldn't that require some time to judge? There's a problem and if you can't define or acknowledge it, get out of the way. Sh*t my terps have the "Jihad works both ways" up on their FB pages. They made their choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbvz2mTUDWA&feature=related
This is the USA?
Ahh... right, this IS the
Ahh... right, this IS the USA, 2011.
http://newsminer.com/view/full_story/12286233/article-Five-arrested-in-a...
FAIRBANKS — Five people, including militia activist Schaeffer Cox, were arrested Thursday in the Fairbanks area for allegedly conspiring to kill multiple Alaska State Troopers and a federal judge.
The group had stockpiled weapons and conducted surveillance on the homes of two troopers, according to Alaska State Troopers. Some of the weapons known to be in the cache are prohibited by state or federal law, according to troopers.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/accused-mlk-bomb-plotters-alleged-ties-neo...
The man accused in the failed Martin Luther King Day bomb plot in Spokane, Wash., has reported links to the white supremacist movement, including a past membership in a neo-Nazi group.
Kevin William Harpham, arrested Wednesday and charged with attempting to use a "weapon of mass destruction" in the foiled Jan. 17 plot, appears to have made over 1,000 posts on online forums at the extreme rightwing website Vanguard News Network.
Harpham, who apparently posted under his own name and then an alias, was active in the forums until a day before the bomb scare. More than a week before that, Harpham was one of several users who offered to house prominent white nationalist Craig Cobb. Cobb is on the run from Canadian authorities for alleged hate crimes and had called his supporters to launch violent attacks in the name of white supremacy, according to a report by The Vancouver Sun
---
And just for fun:
http://www.thepoliticalcesspool.org/statement.php
I take a somewhat different
I take a somewhat different stance:
http://dustin-dehez.blogspot.com/2011/03/king-hearings-arent-mccarthyite...
Did I miss something? Who did
Did I miss something?
Who did America go to war with ?
Cop killers? Nope. White Supremacists? Nope. Nazis? German-Americans took care of their image problem in the '40's and got rid of Hitler. Neo-Nazis? Nope.
Americans of all colors have been arresting people who commit crime for a lot time, including people that target law enforcement. White people have been jailing white supremacists and neo-nazis for a long time.
If I saw a Radical Muslim plotting to hurt Americans, I know some Police Officers that would love to talk to them. I would not blink and eye to turn them in. I have reported other crimes. It is civic duty and I would want some one else to do for my family. Wouldn't you?
Why is it wrong to ask our other fellow Americans of the Muslim faith to do the same? America is at war with radical islam. One trillion dollars and a lot of dead American soldiers is a lot of reasons to ask for help from the Muslim community.
Are Muslims in America to be Americans or are they just in town for the money and life style?
It is time to choose. I am not asking anything of anyone that I would not first do myself.
Civic Duty and Honor. Country first.
"Why is it wrong to ask our
"Why is it wrong to ask our other fellow Americans of the Muslim faith to do the same?"
Where Is it considered wrong to do so?
Thank you, There is nothing
Thank you,
There is nothing wrong with King's hearings.
False consensus? Your
False consensus? Your paymasters are satisfied with that?
Given the doctored videos and software-generated 'voices' that buy prominence on the ethernet, one is given to understand how an inadequately evaluated business model predicated on such a premise might gain funding. After all, fucking the paymasters is where it's at in this brave new world, isn't it?
But don't think you win wars that way.
The white-bearded dudes just can't fuck as does the force that through the green fuse drives the flower.
John Barry - WTF? What did
John Barry - WTF? What did the bombing of a Remembrance Day service have to do with 'freedom' for 'Ireland'? Ireland was already free.
Well, I for one think these
Well, I for one think these hearings are terribly necessary. There is an obvious need to remind folks of the Great Threat from Our Enemies.
And now I hear it's true that not all The Arabs are Muslim, and not all the Muslims are Arabs. Kind of got off track right from the start there, but who could have known that, when it seems like all our enemies in Judea and Samara are Muslim and Arab!
And the website I use for my tax deductions? They don't say anything about there being a bunch different from all those people who hate us because we're rich and exceptional ... um, exceptionally great.
It is too bad about the old Sikh men, but that weird headwear is confusing! I know, I know - they should all just go back to where ever they came from, so we don't have to take back this great land of ours from their dirty thiev... um, you know. . .
Anyway, we need people to tell us which ones to fear. Did you hear? That nice Joe Lieberman and his friend John McCain found out that some of the Iranians, the MEK, are Not Terrorists. And what about that nice Jonathon Pollard? He shouldn't still be in jail! He was just spying for Israel; what's the harm?
DNC 2nd amendment agenda
DNC 2nd amendment agenda unfolds, now we know why Obama immortalized Loughner while down playing Ft. Hood (Nidal Malik Hasan).
http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0311/gun_reforms_e64d94e2-d525-4...
“I’m willing to bet that responsible, law-abiding gun owners agree that we should be able to keep an irresponsible, law-breaking few — dangerous criminals and fugitives, for example — from getting their hands on a gun in the first place,” he said.
Job of every gun control group, especially the ones that want out right bans, is to make their agenda as harmless as possible. This allows them to gather as much support as possible.
Now I know why a majoriy of good America people think that this President is Muslim and from a foreign country.
You can not get futher left then this President, nor tax and spend.
He just super energized the Republican Base.
Thank you for losing in 2012.
Add your comment