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Kill Team
I have a very busy few days of work ahead of me in which blogging will be light, but in addition to my analysis of the president's speech last night, do read this Rolling Stone article on the murders of civilians in Afghanistan by U.S. troops. Josh Foust has criticized the article as "war porn," and maybe what he writes about how Rolling Stone sensationalizes the horrors of war has some merit.* (Lord knows, I have been critical of the articles Rolling Stone has run on Afghanistan in the past.) But the readership of this blog is hardly representative of the U.S. public as a whole and has a lot of combat journalists and military readers, both retired and active-duty, who have a practiced ear for what rings true and what seems incomplete in accounts of combat, so I trust your ability to separate the wheat from the chaff here.
In my opinion, this article should be required reading for officers and non-commissioned officers because of the questions it raises with respect to discipline, command climate, and the professionalism of our armed forces. I was in real, physical discomfort reading this article. I mean, it was really, really difficult to read. And at the end of rugby practice last night, another Afghanistan veteran came up to me unprompted and asked me if I had read the article -- because he too had been sickened reading it. I hope as many soldiers and officers as possible read this article and discuss it with their peers and subordinates, because there are no easy explanations for what went wrong in this Stryker platoon but lots of tough questions units deploying to or currently serving in Afghanistan should be asking themselves based on what happened.
*Unlike Josh, I actually think writer Mark Boal did a pretty solid job here. Nothing in his narrative jumped out at me as egregiously unfair -- unlike this. So I have a tough time lumping this story in with earlier Rolling Stone hit pieces, and even if the magazine has an anti-war agenda in the stories it selects and promotes, I credit Boal for writing a compelling account that may titilate Americans who have no experience in Afghanistan but provides an important conversation piece for those of us who have.
UPDATE: Let me just add two things. First, if you are a general reader with no experience in Iraq or Afghanistan, rest assured that the platoon featured in this article is not, in fact, representative of U.S. combat units. Second, I googled the author of the article and discovered he wrote The Hurt Locker. That movie is often criticized by veterans of Iraq as being ridiculously unrealistic at times, but I certainly do not think it was unsympathetic to the stress under which soldiers often find themselves in combat. Again, I think this article should provoke some good and necessary conversations among soldiers and officers serving in or about to serve in Afghanistan.
The Rolling Stone article
The Rolling Stone article mentions that SSG Gibbs served on the personal security detail of Col. Tunnell. The Army Times published a story a few years back on Col. Tunnell's approach to COIN, which was basically to ignore COIN doctrine and stay focused on the enemy in a "counter-guerilla" approach. The Army Times article talks about how that impacted lower-level leadership and Soldier morale.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/12/army_afghanistan_mixed_signals_122...
Pls see the coments of
Pls see the coments of Journalist Michael Yon on this article:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/calling-bullshit-on-rolling-stone.htm
I think it´s important not to generalize, and the video included was a poor choice because it represented good combat soldiers operating under the ROE.
Regards
The Washington Post also
The Washington Post also published a story last October on this jacked up brigade commander. What a loser.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/13/AR201010...
Is there anyone reading this
Is there anyone reading this blog who has served extensively outside FOBs in Afghanistan or Iraq who hasn't seen first hand coalition forces use inappropriate violence against a civilian? Not outright murder like this crew but just an indifference to the locals that allows regular ROE killings and the use of air strikes and artillery without much regard to the chance of harming innocents.
Yet another data point that
Yet another data point that suggests the Army need to dial back the "warrior" rhetoric pretty damn quick. GEN Dempsey are you listening??
It would be a stretch to say that there is a direct correlation between incidents such as this and the Army's awkward and ill-conceived internal messaging since 2003. That said, the possible contribution of that messaging to a larger problem must be explored.
I've long been troubled by the second and third order effects that the post-2003 "warrior" schtick could have on our Army. Now, we have SSGs and CPTs that only know an Army that has embraced that self-image with the charge of, " stand [ing] ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat." This claptrap is dangerous, devoid of nuance and poison to the minds of 19 year old PFCs and ROTC cadets. Doubly so in a COIN environment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Soldier's_Creed
The change in our internal messaging is best seen in our Soldier's Creed. The pre-2003 version, written in the wake of Vietnam, seemed to pointedly address the sorts of things discussed in the Rolling Stone Piece. the pre-2003 creed actually said the following:
"As a soldier, I realize that I am a member of a time-honored profession--that I am doing my share to keep alive the principles of freedom for which my country stands.
No matter what the situation I am in, I will never do anything, for pleasure, profit, or personal safety, which will disgrace my uniform, my unit, or my country.
I will use every means I have, even beyond the line of duty, to restrain my Army comrades from actions disgraceful to themselves and to the uniform."
This was all excised in 2003 and replaced with the bellicose and jingoistic "warrior ethos" . We need to revisit those revisions. Now.
GEN Dempsey and SMA Chandler are you up to the task? Can you at least make an effort to rein in this insanity?
GEN Casey and SMA Preston were not. They failed our Army and our soldiers.
One night last year in Zabul
One night last year in Zabul some US Army troops saw some suspicious Afghans (no weapons but with digging tools) on their long range camera so they called in an airstrike and evaporated at least two people.
A contractor asked why they had killed the Afghans.
NCO: "They were out at night".
Contactor: "It's Ramazon, it's really hot during the day and lots of farmers are working while it's cool"
NCO: What's Ramazon?
The ignorance of the vast majority of coalition troops WRT Afghanistan and it's people after nine year of the campaign is breathtaking as is the lack of true concern about it's people. The sooner we leave the better for all of us.
There's at least one factual
There's at least one factual error in the article. It says that one of the brigade's battalions "had lost more soldiers in action than any since the start of the war," in reference to 1-17 Infantry. Another battalion, 2-503 Infantry, had lost more the previous year, and yet another, 2 Rifles, had lost more the same year.
You found the article
You found the article difficult to read? Well, I wonder what you thought of the comments on the article, some apparently written by actual soldiers. To me those were even scarier than the article itself.
Visitor 11:00am: "NCO: What's Ramazon? " - OK, that's pretty scary too.
I do not need to read the
I do not need to read the article, I have read them before.
Lot has changed in this world and we can only truly understand from experience, but do we really understand because our experience is fixed in our times.
The US civil war was butchery by today's standards. Andrew, you read "Empire of the Summer Moon". WW1 saw all the best that industrial nations could offer, mustard gas and no man's land. It even got better for WW2 with the fire bombing of Dresden and the Atomic bombing of Japan. Then there was the other WAR that was NOT A WAR Korea, there was the Chosen at Chosin. Let us not forget Vietnam.
There is always going to be the case of people losing their way in battle. You take normal people, teach them to kill, and when they kill everyone is aghast because we as a society did our job so well.
Command and leadership comes from the top, and war is ugly.
Are we going to end all wars by making them police actions? War is not suppose to be pretty. It really was not until Vietnam that war was in our living rooms.
Now that we have war that is clean and pretty, we have a President that has expanded the front twice. If Obama had to read articles like the Rolling Stone every day would he be so willing to go to war?
I do not condemn this platoon, I condemn the system that put these kids into a position that threatened their lives and gave them a list of rules that suppressed their natural desire to protect themselves. No wonder that so many GIs come back with stress problems.
Would the Parker's of Texas fame find this Platoon's behavior wrong? I do not think so, I would think that the Parkers would think the Platoon did not go far enough.
We have a President setting the example. The Commander and Chief. Obama is showing the nation that you can skirt the system and get away with it. Call a war, not a war. Talk down the cost of war. Make war a righteous affair. Make killing OK as long as it is not Gadhafi's evil troops. The Nation just paid off a bunch of Wall Street guys. Kids cheat in school. The list of bad examples goes on.
With an example like that at the top, I am not sure that we can ask any less of our troops in the field.
Personally I do not think the people that were outside the wire in current battles really truly know war, for the only people that truly know war are the ones that walked up the beaches of Normandy, Iwo Jima, or lived through Chosin. My father came home with the Normandy crowd and they were a truly focused bunch they were. My father backed down a crowd of GI's that were going to rip a Stateside train station apart. The ticket agent told one of the guys that survived Normandy that GI's had it good while the folks at home had to ration. The whole train ride to Chicago was one of decompression, everyone on the whole train was drunk. My Uncle that was in Korea came back a changed man.
If you could find a survivor of Normandy, I would be more interested in their views than the guys in the present day wars.
Calley was a fall guy. That is coming right out of the 23rd. He was prosecuted to save to institution that sent him to Vietnam.
Does not make sense does it. No one I know that has been in war wants to do it again, but the process develops a strong sense of justice.
War is killing and the military is tooled up for that purpose. We should not blame the people or the institution.
We should not go to war unless it is truly needed. These police actions are wrong. We should blame our selves for creating the opportunity.
I read this article. It made
I read this article. It made me physically uncomfortable and embarassed to be in the Army. That embarassment won't last, but it sure feels tough today.
I agree that all Officers, NCOs, and Soldiers should read this article. Although it does veer close to "war porn," and the pictures and videos offered on the website are little better than snuff films, I think it is well worth the time of any active duty servicemember to read.
Nope, you cannot run from
Nope, you cannot run from this fundamental fact of war and incompetent command. Part of that see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil culture.
This is a repeat performance of the military and its structure. Dare I mention Fort Hood? I will not be satisfied until the entire Joint Chiefs offer their resignations to the POTUS and the Congress. This is a COMMAND failure all the way to the POTUS.
Each member of the military should be required to look away when they walk pass a US Citizen. Shame, Shame, Shame!
Time to Ask and to Tell on all things. No Excuses. Totally unacceptable from a professional force. No forgiveness until the generals bow at the feet of the innocent families.
"Lets go out and drop napalm on some civilians." And please dont tell me I dont understand. Go throttle all of your Ollie North's. They brought this sin to our shores. Hoorah.
The True Believer:Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer, Harper & Row, 1951.
'"And slime had they for mortar - Genesis II"'
While we are talking
While we are talking leadership.
Did you see Hillary Clinton's face light up on Meet the Press.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42293816#42293816
There is a picture-in-picture of Clinton's face while Ferraro is talking about "pushing the button".
Think Hillary would confuse the RESET BUTTON for the nuclear button?
After Libya, makes be nervous. This one will run for POTUS if a primary slot opens. I know she has said no. Heard that before. Being the "first" is something that this one can not resist.
Her track record makes me question her judgment.
PS....If Robert Gates has ANY self respect, he would leave the administration NOW rather than later.
In response to Comment by
In response to Comment by Visitor on March 29, 2011 - 9:37am: Yes.
happen EVERYDAY in our own
happen EVERYDAY in our own cities, albeit by civilians, not those trained to serve in Afghanistan. That by random happenstance the sorts of people who would be committing such crimes on our own people find their way into the army and commit such crimes overseas is not surprising.
The real question here is the failure of leadership and the consideration of how we keep such psychopaths out of the armed services.
Leaders must always keep a portion of their mind "independent" i.e. a portion of their brain should look upon the current situation from "afar" and independently analyze the situation. My daddy taught me a long time ago to be suspicious when a parent says "my child would never do that" for that can mean that the parent has likely never rationally analyzed the situation that landed the child in hot water. Likewise, a leader who willfully ignores warning signs discussed in the article is likely not analyzing the situation rationally. All this is easier said than done.
Would tougher entry training help weed out the unbalanced? More psyche exams? Polygraphs? Whatever we do makes it harder to fill out the force.
@Billy Pilgrim, Second that
@Billy Pilgrim,
Second that motion.
Let's turn this over to contractors, the Xe (and worse) kind. The fantasy leadership for fantasy war has killed enough of our kids, and taken enough of the living limbs of the wounded. Go do social work, or be policemen - except in a tough neighborhood you're not cut out for that either. Perhaps teaching, or something less stressful for your delicate constitutions.
You.Lose.Wars.
You'll fuck up Libya, too.
Do you know what I find
Do you know what I find interesting, Exum?
Pattern recognition.
I see a pattern here. The constant stream of atrocity, the fall of surrounding nations to enemy ideology....like dominos....does this remind you of anything?
The Kill Squad is not an isolated event. There were Kill Squads in Vietnam.
And of course, the other various products of the Bush Doctrine and COIN; Abu Ghraib, Garani massacre, Baghram Theater Detention Center, Camp No, Fallujah massacre, the Iraqi Rape Squad, NATO chopper on boys getting firewood action, MQ9 Reaper on afghan wedding party action.....see an emergent pattern, Andrew?
Do I get props for Article 2 of the Egyptian Referendum?
Didn't I say that when muslims are democratically empowered to vote, they vote for MOAR Islam, not less, and never for judeochristan democracy?
25% of all the arabs there are just DEMOCRATICALLY voted for shariah law.
;)
ELF you are making the wrong
ELF you are making the wrong analogy.
The parallel isnt Libya and Iraq.....it is Afghanistan and Vietnam.
Something very bad is coming. Can you feel it yet?
There is a pattern.
I was deployed at the time
I was deployed at the time this story originally came loose to the public. It has had an impact on our efforts operationally and I assume it will only continue to hinder our effort to spin our deeds as for the improvement of Afghanistan. I became physically nauseous reading the article yesterday. I grew so angry I actually had notions of accepting these pieces of human waste being handed over the Afghan government for expedition of sentencing. If we can't demonstrate how harshly we are willing to deal with murderers- and they are nothing but murderers- in our ranks, how will we ever succeed in convincing the population that the security elements we are standing up to legitimize the government won't be the murderous thugs that infest the ranks of many other countries in the region?
As for the soldiers in the ranks... I have seen a noticeable change in the quality of soldiers at the level of E-7 and below since 2007. The lowering of enlistment standards, the waivers, the lack of discipline and good order are coming back to haunt us in ways that we could have imagined, but we should have anticipated when the ranks grew thin with recruits in the middle of the decade. As a soldier, I'm embarrassed, I'm angry, and I'm vehemently in favor of returning to capital punishment for crimes like these. These are nothing but pre-meditated acts of murder by people who were simply murderers- they weren't soldiers. They were murderers who happened to disguise themselves in the uniform the rest of us wear. And the generations that built the honor and integrity that uniform is made of were pissed on by rank that refused to deal with the situation as it became exposed. The lack of integrity up the chain of command is an embarrassment to ever decent soldier who has sacrificed time and again for his Army and his country... only to have been spit on by people without the courage to attack and correct a problem that threatens to derail an entire counter-insurgency effort. It's getting harder and harder to defend our posture as 'assisting the Afghan people' when we have to endure this nonsense in the ranks.
Daja Vu. Seems a little
Daja Vu. Seems a little insane to have this posting while our government debates sending arms to the Mujahideen. Think we will ever read about our leaders in the Rolling Stone? Am I hearing advisers?
Funny rules of engagement. I am confused.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/world/africa/30diplo.html
They said the arms most likely to be of use were relatively light and simple shoulder-fired anti-armor weapons for defense against tanks, as well as rifles like Soviet AK-47s and communications equipment. Although these weapons are not especially sophisticated, months, if not years, of on-the-ground training would still be necessary.
.
“You can’t just parachute crates of weapons and ammunition to them,” said Nathan Freier, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and an Army strategist in Iraq in 2005 and 2007.
.
Even with training, Mr. Freier said, anti-armor weapons and rifles would only allow the rebels to consolidate their gains and hold the territory they already have. “In order for them to expand those gains and move on to Tripoli,” he said, “they would need much more robust and sophisticated military capabilities.”
PS....What is this Administration going to do when those arms are flown to South American through the drug cartel smuggling routes and end up in Mexico ? There are already enough guns on Libya to keep the people in Mexico busy for years to come.
These are some dated reports about AQ in the Islamic Maghreb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMtOcibpmPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7-8GMWCpsw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyse-xDYKVM&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9dRIU1dZHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwnC1zi1xLo
There also some videos about AQ training camps in Morocco, did not post these as they were all in Arabic. You know the usual, guys running around with guns training and yelling. Think these guys have enough guns. Maybe Gadhafi is right about the Rebels being AQ.
NUTS.
Not what I signed up for.
Not what I signed up for. Can we admit two things: we are letting in a lot of people who don't belong in uniform, and complete failure of NCO's. JFC, any thug can pump lead into a corpse; the Army exerts lethal force with precision, authority and, most importantly, by necessity.
I don't know whether the Kill
I don't know whether the Kill Team are murderers or not, I am not going to take the word of either RS or our Politically Correct/Hang the Soldiers they made us look bad on TV posse. However if they did as it's reported in the Press:
Cost of doing Business.
Did they kill any women or kids? Was rape involved? Not reaching the heinous bar.
If they are just shooting total strangers for no reason, then sure prosecute them, jail them.
However recognize that Rolling Stone, Speigel, and the rest of the International "Humanitarian" Left is not our friend. They will befriend you to get in, or for a story. But they like Nir Rosen and so many others are in the other camp.. It doesn't matter who the other is, as long as he's not Western, in particular American, and especially American Military. We are at best retrograde, backwards thinking brutes . If we can be used to their ends fine. If reality begins to crack through the seams in the fantasy war they have and will continue to round on us with a vengeance.
They'd prosecute all of us if they dared. Which is why you give them nothing beginning with the argument.
The phrase "I grant you that " should never cross our lips.
As for this PC COIN nonsense it was a lie in Iraq and it's a lie now. The mistake is believing your own propaganda.
In a failing effort: is to
In a failing effort: is to blame the soldiers.
There are few bad American Soldiers. There are many bad, mediocre, time serving Leaders.
When you begin to despise the Troops, it's time to quit.
The caliber of our Troops isn't declining, it's that your getting older. That and perhaps the Troops have realized the quality of their Leaders and they are returning in kind, as they are wont to do.
And perhaps they see through the fantasy and realize the game is up.
Um, yeah, they pretty clearly
Um, yeah, they pretty clearly killed kids. Happy now? Heinous enough for you?
It certainly is for me. I agree that many on the left would hold us to an absurd standard, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold ourselves to a legitimate one.
Pedro, thanks for linking to
Pedro, thanks for linking to that article. The comments section really cleared up some stuff i was wondering about. I think this quote from the amazon reviews for Michael Yon's book says it all.
If i could pick one person to be a friend, that i have never met in person, it would be Mike Yon.
http://www.amazon.com/Danger-Close-Michael-Phillip-Yon/dp/0967512328/ref...
Thanks, Matt Douze-Trente III
Here is Clinton addressing
Here is Clinton addressing the 40 Nation Talk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1qIBI1WgPc
I do not get it. Here we are hanging our hat on a massacre that never happened.
Self defense law in the US is clear, you can only use lethal force if you are threatened. This knits into the discussion of the "KILL TEAM". Military rules of engagement are even more specific. A threat to a US civilian is well defined, the attack must be present to use lethal force. Specifically if it is a knife attack, the attacker must be close enough and in the progress of attacking. If it is an attack with a firearm, the attacker must be in the process of showing a clear and threatening motion ( that means you're within a jiffy second of hearing "bang" from an attacker's gun). In both attacks proximity is a standard, the attacker has to be close enough to show a threat, law is stronger if that threat is on dirt you own. Then and only then is a US citizen given the right to self-defense.
As victim, even if you are in the right, you are going to end up in court in a lot of States defending yourself. Today that would cost you about $100,000, maybe more. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
For a person in Chicago, Illinois to say in court that the massacre never happened, I prevented it from happening, I "acted to prevent the crime". Put yourself on that jury.
The end result should be GUILTY of manslaughter each and every time ! It is a matter of civil rights. We can not have people running around on a "KILL TEAM" because they THINK something is going to happen to them. Both Hillary Clinton and Obama came out of Chicago, this is a double standard. I am hearing self righteousness echoing in their words.
I am my government, why should by government have rights that I do not have? Neither Libya or the ME are is in close proximity or showed a threat in this case.
To turn around and say that the world is NOT going to "IMPOSE OUR WILL" on the Libya people is absurd. IMPOSING OUR WILL on the Libyan people is EXACTLY what the world is doing. What would happen if AQ took over Libya and it was the will of the Libyan people to do so? Has anyone looked at the demographics of Libya as a whole before the NFZ was enforced and the US started doing air support for the Rebels? How many people are on each side of the Libyan fight, who is in the majority? I am not supporting Gadhafi, but his people attacked HIS government with a clear threat. Even US military rules of engagement would allow lethal force to be used ! Speaker Pelosi had Capital Police arrest Tea Partiers for just showing up in her office expressing their freedom of speech! Where were the Tea Party's civil liberties that day (it was one of the largest Tea Party protests in Washington leading up to the Heath Care vote were the Tea Party actually went into the Capital building, like the Union people did in Wisconsin).
What Clinton really meant to say in her opening statement to the 40 nation discussion.....
" I wish I had a dick, but I don't so I stepped on Obama's. Now that I created this situation, it is up to me to get all of you to agree with me. Now that I am pregnant all of you are on the list for being the father. Let us not ruin our political careers, the world is watching. I am sure that you will see it my way, there is no other choice, Gadhafi must to go. I do not care if Libya is a sovereign country with laws and ways of its own, Gadhafi must go. I do not care if the people in the Middle East or Africa kill each other everyday this massacre that never happened must never happen again in anyone's mind, Gadhafi has to go. I can only hope after I clean up the mess I made that the US true interest in the ME, Saudi Arabia, will talk to me again. Hail Obama 2012 ! Please see my secretary at the back of the room, he has a foreign aid check waiting for you, contact me if it is not enough to buy your vote "
Why is it that government can get away with this, but the "KILL TEAM" is offensive to us?
I do not want to pay for this war in Libya, I do not want ObamaCare, I do want high government spending.
My government is IMPOSING THEIR WILL ON ME. Does the Libyan "WILL" stand a "higher test" than the "WILL of the people" of our own US government?
What do you have to say about that Hillary? Got a check for me payable to, John Q US Citizen to get my loyalty?
IRR Soldier, 10th mountainR:
IRR Soldier, 10th mountainR: What you said both.
This is partly about collective PTSD unchecked combined with a meanness that will occur now and again in the human terrain. What is really shocking with the story is the command-failure. The one guys dad was on the phone, calling in murders and the lads at command went "nah". Thats truly shocking.
But you seem to promote failure a lot over there.
"My government is IMPOSING
"My government is IMPOSING THEIR WILL ON ME."
Dude, it used to be called the democratic consensus. Like monopoly of violence and all that shit.
Is this any worse than a
Is this any worse than a "KILL TEAM". Killing liberty one crisis at a time.
Think I hear a ring of the 10th Mountain in the voice of the ATF veteran.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml...
CBS News has been told at least 11 ATF agents and senior managers voiced fierce opposition to the strategy. "It got ugly..." said one. There was "screaming and yelling" says another. A third warned: "this is crazy, somebody is gonna to get killed."
.
Sure enough, the weapons soon began surfacing at crime scenes in Mexico - dozens of them sources say - including shootouts with government officials.
.
One agent argued with a superior asking, "are you prepared to go to the funeral of a federal officer killed with one of these guns?" Another said every time there was a shooting near the border, "we would all hold our breath hoping it wasn't one of 'our' guns."
.
Then, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered. The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.
.
"You feel like s***. You feel for the parents," one ATF veteran told us.
Think OVERCHARGED is was
Think OVERCHARGED is was correct.
If Hillary and Obama were alone in a room and no body knew, would they press the .....
Gadhafi KILL BUTTON?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GdLClHAMB0
Think Hillary likes to press buttons, what do you think? The "double edge sword" did not get a smile, but the kill button sure did.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42293816#42293816
Would you push it? Be like Connie Chung, no one will know, just you and me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vecw539MjWM
the entire chain of command
the entire chain of command up to the Bn commander was charged. For various reasons those charges have been dismissed over the years, but the fact remains that each of those officers WAS CHARGED. Thus, whether intentional or not, those charges served as a SHOT ACROSS THE BOW for all other marine combat leaders that you better start sniffing (as opposed to holding your nose) when something smells funny.
Why hasn't the army done the same thing here????
Why should other officers investigate when the officers in the "kill team" chain of command seem to have gotten off without so much as a niploc?
@Fnord, "the democratic
@Fnord,
"the democratic consensus. Like monopoly of violence"
That's not the American Social Contract, Fnord, or the Constitution. For one thing the government absolutely doesn't have a monopoly of violence. Max Weber wasn't Madison, and the Founders absolutely wouldn't have gone along with the concept. It's a theme that runs through all the founding documents, and not just the Second Amendment.
Nor do we the Americans. Perhaps a retrograde idea in certain refined circles - like the one around DC - but one we'll quite cling to with a tenacity worthy of any Tribesman.
As for War or the actions of the Kill Team - no it's not a Civil Rights issue as Mission Creeps states above. Nor does or should US Civil and Criminal Laws apply to any Battlefield. However many including our Cowardly Lion Chain of Command will pretend it does. Calley was pardoned for a reason, Nixon understood the costs of war and the necessity of keeping faith with those who fight it. This bunch of perennial college freshmen does not.
If the Kill Team are simply murderers, off to the dock with them. However I didn't hear a peep out of the Left about the Israeli children including a 4 month old baby who were beheaded by Palestine's latest heroes in their beds sleeping.
Their names were Fogel, but hey it's just some Jews, right?
The Left has taken a side. They can continue to play the Rachel Corrie Human Rights game but just about everyone sees through it. Didn't work forever for her, either. Don't pretend to care about Human Rights, the game is up. You care about the side you've adopted- not the side you were born on. Fine. Let fly and let the most skilled and lucky win.
As far as us inculcating mediocracy - no. However imagine your comrades at the barricades if they had guns and there were no cops around. You'd see who they were, fast.
"That's not the American
"That's not the American Social Contract, Fnord, or the Constitution."
Seriously, Elf? you have the right to armed insurrection through the "armed miltia" clause? Some folks in Waco and at Ruby Ridge discovered the edge of that clause, me thinks...
"However I didn't hear a peep
"However I didn't hear a peep out of the Left about the Israeli children including a 4 month old baby who were beheaded by Palestine's latest heroes in their beds sleeping."
Well, I dont know if Abbas is left wing, but he called the killings barbaric and inhumane in several different languages. When we going to get some action on the price-tag actions of the settlers? They been uprooting olivetrees under IDF protection for quite a long time now.
The weird thing about what
The weird thing about what you call the humanitarian left Elf is that they'd be willing to see 1000s of Arabs and others die to prove their own theories right and to make the US look bad. They don't actually care about the Iraqis or the Afghans or the Palestinians in that they're legitimately concerned by their plight but only to the extent that they can be used to make the west look evil. A Taliban victory in Afghanistan would mean death for tens of thousands, but who cares, the Taliban are fighting against us so they must be doing something right. Same with numerous Palestinian groups, Samir Kuntar was greeted as a hero when he got out of prison for smashing a 4 year olds head on a rock after killing her father right in front of her, but he was killing the right 4 year old. If Nir Rosen or others like him were given the choice of having the US win in Iraq and violence decline, and then the option of the US leaving in disgrace and a civil war follow in its wake, it's not hard to imagine which side he would come down on. It's all about moral relativism.
Fnord, Where was the
Fnord,
Where was the "democratic concensus" when Obama, at the behest of unelected officials and ideologues, and the demands of foreign powers, went to war without consulting the legislative branch? SOS says we will now go to war to protect the "vital interests" of our allies. Our allies were not attacked, but in a theoretical way their "interests" were threatened? POTUS says the American taxpayer must intervene in foreign wars to uphold a type of interventionist moral code that was never presented to the American citizenry to accept or reject in a plebiscite, or was not even offered to our elected representatives.
"demands of foreign powers"
"demands of foreign powers"
That would mostly be France and the UK. While I would prefer that we stay out of civil wars, one can make a case that we should support allies when they make direct requests if they feel as though they have interests at stake. There were also significant time constraints.
"uphold a type of interventionist moral code that was never presented to the American citizenry to accept or reject in a plebiscite, or was not even offered to our elected representatives."
Alas, that is our history. Many of the interventions we engaged in after the Truman Doctrine was enunciated were never made public.
Steve
Elf, As for War or the
Elf,
As for War or the actions of the Kill Team - no it's not a Civil Rights issue as Mission Creeps states above. Nor does or should US Civil and Criminal Laws apply to any Battlefield.
As far as Civil Law goes, I was thinking more along the lines of the trigger to go to battle. Like the decision to go into Libya. There are no national interests in Libya and Gadhafi was not in America's home threatening anyone. Is humanitarian aid enough reason to commit resources? If America used the latter standard, we would be in just about every country waging war. To me the low standard of humanitarian aid is absolutely the wrong reason to go to war.
Another way of looking at it is this: Is the situation serious enough to wage a TOTAL war. If the answer is yes, then war is justified. Anything else is really a waste of resources or really really bad foreign policy.
The Kill Team was allowed to happen because America had its priorities wrong. The Kill Team happens when you're in country too long and the Army starts letting people in that should not be in. Vietnam is an example, at the end of the war heroin use was a real problem, then the troops brought it home. Did not help that the CIA was running drugs as a calling card to get into neighboring countries. Took a long time for America to shake off the goofy Vietnam Vet concept, think it hurt the Military even more.
On the battle field, I am the sort that anything goes once you decide to go total. It is how you win. That is why that using a high a threshold is important. You got to war to win, to give the guy the trench one reason to be there. Not ten reasons not to act. America does not want to say it, that is how WW2 was won.
We saved a over a million US GI lives by dropping the bombs in Japan. Japan should not have done Pearl Harbor!
Once you get done with a total war, you have a problem with some of the people that were in it.
Look what happened to General Patton!
It is the reason we should avoid war and set the standard at its highest to wage it.
BTW.....Real hoot about the Presidential Finding. CIA in the ME should make the US look like bunch of IDIOTS. IRAN is going to have a field day!
Sitting in an Army liason
Sitting in an Army liason office at a MEPS station a month ago, I read the soldiers creed hanging on the wall. I couldn't agree with IRR soilder more. What bothers me more is when I asked another guy in the office what he wants to do in the army he replied; "I wanna fuck shit up." I'm hoping that this is not the feeling of every person joining our military. The army needs to instil in recruits minds that it's not all about firefights and patrols, they also need to tell them that they are the (as cliche as this sounds) represenitives of America. If soldiers want to win the War on Terror they need win peoples hearts and minds, then again I think some these guys could care less.
"Where was the "democratic
"Where was the "democratic concensus" when Obama, at the behest of unelected officials and ideologues, and the demands of foreign powers, went to war without consulting the legislative branch?"
Umm, it was exactly that, through elections we give our representative leaders the ability to make on the spot decisions. At the behest of your allies a massacre in Benghazi was averted, a massacre Gadaffi was announcing in advance on television. In other words, a decision made by necessity. Thats the whole point of representative democracy, we choose people who we give some responsibility in a crisis. If wrong is done or laws are broken, thats when the system is supposed to kick in and react. Now Im sure you can go all formalistic and declare that this limited action was illegal, but that would seriously undermine the response ability of the US.
To get back on topic, thats why the command chain is the real issue in the article, much more than the murders done by the soldiers. Shit sometimes happens and people react, but why wasnt there a proper response examining the CoC? I dont get it.
Haditha charges were
Haditha charges were dismissed for "various reasons".
Yes, like it was a rigged case by a lynch mob, led by a corrupt Congressman who is mercifully dead. Like the review Judges threw it out for unlawful Command influence - something that will follow Mattis around. Like half that village was Wahabbi (and killing people in the other half). Like the ROE were actually changed to allow old time MOUT - grenade first, flesh and blood through the fatal funnel second. In other words despite the best efforts to sacrifice Marines to placate the insatiable appetites of traitors they weren't lynched.
At Haditha they were only guilty of war.
We're not policemen, and the battlefield is not a courtroom. Although the TOCs are full of Defense Lawyers and "Civil Rights" community organizers. If only the troops had community organizers.
We got the message alright though, you're right about that. Don't trust your chain until proven, don't talk outside the set, don't take people along on trips unless they wanna be there, and above all NO F*CKING CAMERAS. That's what keeps doing people in, and these idiots can go to jail for being stupid, and breaking OPSEC Omerta. That and they apparently trusted at least one wrong person in the set.
Walk and turn it over to mercs. If the establishment military can't or won't get the job done then we can sign Letters of Marque and Reprisal and get someone who can. It's a war made for Mercs/Privateers in any case.
Because it's war, war, war
Because it's war, war, war all the time and everywhere - absolutely positively necessary.
I don't think so.
@ Fnord, ""That's not the
@ Fnord,
""That's not the American Social Contract, Fnord, or the Constitution."
Seriously, Elf? you have the right to armed insurrection through the "armed miltia" clause? Some folks in Waco and at Ruby Ridge discovered the edge of that clause, me thinks..."
I was saying the State does not have a monopoly on violence. It's not supposed to. And yes in extremis we do have the right of armed insurrection, however the point of the Second Amendment is that the people by being armed deter potential tyrants from taking things to that point. It's one of many mechanisms in the Constitution to prevent tyranny, the other two chief mechanisms being Federalism and the rest of the Bill of Rights.
Fnord, Waco was a massacre of an admittedly paranoid end of days Bible Study Group, a massacre that included tanks and women and children being killed. The Texas Dept of Public Safety (aka the Texas Rangers) and Congress had some very serious problems with it. Ruby Ridge - the "folks" that found out was a Mother holding a baby in her arms looking out her window when an FBI sniper blew her away. Both botched raids were warranted by illegal weapons charges, not insurrection. In fact in both cases the groups wanted to essentially retreat from society and wait for the Apocalypse but weren't bothering people or engaging in terrorism. Unlike the latest darlings of the Left - who actually are Apocalyptic terrorists. Waco/Ruby Ridge were the Left's strong anti-Christian bias translated to Judicial Murder, they probably feel the same way about the American Christian Right in General. It's just that the right people to include women and children get killed.
It simply
in your post is your view
in your post is your view that the Kill Team's chain of command is blameless for this incident. I disagree.
Rule of Law, Fnord, and
Rule of Law, Fnord, and limits of authority
"Umm, it was exactly that, through elections we give our representative leaders the ability to make on the spot decisions."
The agency given to our leaders is not limitless, it was never intended to be. We are not legally required to help our allies unless they are attacked. Regarding Libya, we were not obligated to provide assistance. The American taxpayer is not to provide security services for BP, nor to advance Sarkozy's political interests.
American history has been characterized by a steady aggrandizement of power by the Executive and by its unelected subordinates in direct contradiction to the vision of our nation's founders. Congress is largely to blame for their acquiescence and cowardice in all of this. They hold the purse strings, they could put the POTUS in his place instantly if they so wished.
But hey, who cares about rule of law when our "response ability" to uphold Universalist Messianism is threatened?
Rule of Law, Fnord, and
Rule of Law, Fnord, and limits of authority
"Umm, it was exactly that, through elections we give our representative leaders the ability to make on the spot decisions."
The agency given to our leaders is not limitless, it was never intended to be. We are not legally required to help our allies unless they are attacked. Regarding Libya, we were not obligated to provide assistance. The American taxpayer is not to provide security services for BP, nor to advance Sarkozy's political interests.
American history has been characterized by a steady aggrandizement of power by the Executive and by its unelected subordinates in direct contradiction to the vision of our nation's founders. Congress is largely to blame for their acquiescence and cowardice in all of this. They hold the purse strings, they could put the POTUS in his place instantly if they so wished.
But hey, who cares about rule of law when our "response ability" to uphold Universalist Messianism is threatened?
Actually on armed
Actually on armed insurrection, it's the carried on tradition of the Anglo Saxon's since Runnymeade and Magna Carta that if a ruler or King ceases to rule in the interests of their subjects or oppress them they have the right of insurrection.
Runnymeade was carried on in both the revolt of the Roundheads,* the Glorious Revolution of 1688, and the American Revolution of 1776. Those principles were put into a hard headed long thought out compact of Government in 1787 - The American Constitution.
*although not so much with the Long Parliament.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . "
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
Not to mention Jefferson and his Tree of Liberty needing to be watered with blood from time to time, Patrick Henry - Give me Liberty or Give me Death, etc.
So yes in extremis we do have the right of Rebellion and Insurrection, even Revolution. We're not there yet. Hopefully peaceful political processes will allow the Republic to right itself. National Bankruptcy and inconclusive war after inconclusive endless prolonged war take us farther from safe shores. And we are at the present at Sea.
On Kill Teams chain of
On Kill Teams chain of Command responsibility - no I don't know the extent of the Chain of Command's culpability.
And I don't care, either. It's a propaganda sideshow at this point, and it's not propaganda in our favor.
I was not going to read the
I was not going to read the Rolling Stone article but will now upon AM's recommendation. I was not going to read it because I read Black Hearts, I read about Abu Ghraib, I read the Peers Commission report and other things. This will be the same thing with different names; all of it a heartbreak.
" We are not legally required
" We are not legally required to help our allies unless they are attacked. Regarding Libya, we were not obligated to provide assistance. The American taxpayer is not to provide security services for BP, nor to advance Sarkozy's political interests. "
Drama-queen on behalf of us Euros: " Hey, thanx for all these years in Af/Pak and Iraq."
Fnord, 86% of Libya's oil
Fnord, 86% of Libya's oil goes to Europe. BP, France's Total, Italy's ENI. There's China's CNPC but don't worry the US is borrowing the money from China. We're not counting the dozens of European firms - French, Italian, German that have factories in Libya. There's nothing in Astan worth our investment resource wise, not to mention we're not getting any of the action anyway. It seems Europe is learning from the Anglo Saxon way of war - a moral er...[crusade] cause to do good where the winners stand to do very well indeed. Kudos. Can we go now?
9/11 was an attack upon a NATO member, so the treaty came into force. Personally I think and thought at the time we should do the military bit ourselves. Any NATO coalition that doesn't involve the Defense of Europe against the Soviet Hordes was and would be so difficult as to be not worth the effort (see - the Balkans Wars in the 90's). It's not worth sacrificing Unity of Command and Effort. We needed intel and logistics bases for this war, the rest we should have just shouldered. For some reason Bush wanted to bring in people on the ground, and we all suffered for it.
He also should have declared war in Sept 01, but that's a different thread.
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