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On Nine Afghan Boys
I spent a bit of time this afternoon explaining to some colleagues the effect the Qana massacre of 1996 had on Israeli military operations in southern Lebanon and then came back into the office to read this:
KABUL, Afghanistan — Nine boys collecting firewood to heat their homes in the eastern mountains were killed by helicopter gunners who mistook them for insurgents, according to a statement on Wednesday by NATO, which apologized for the mistake.
The boys, who were 9 to 15 years old, were attacked on Tuesday in what amounted to one of the war’s worst cases of mistaken killings by foreign-led forces. The victims included two sets of brothers. A 10th boy survived.
In 1996, on the same day as the Qana massacre, the IDF also accidentally killed a family of seven in Nabatiyeh.The IDF compounded their errors by initially refusing to take any responsibility for the horror, so, by contrast, it was good to see Gen. Petraeus personally apologize for the killings in Afghanistan. Civilian casualties have a serious effect on military operations (.pdf), and anyone who argues that we can just apply force indiscriminately in this kind of war simply doesn't understand the nature of the war itself.
Well, a few sheep should take
Well, a few sheep should take care of this.
who argues andrew that we can
who argues andrew that we can "just apply force indiscriminately in this kind of war?
thanks
gian
Only after he after accused
Only after he after accused the Afghans of having burning their own children to exaggerate claims of civilian casualties.
Link
The way I read this account
The way I read this account and having spent some time in the area my perception might be colored a little bit. Sounds like COP Blessing was under indirect fire and they had assets on station. They thought they had caught the people involved red handed with objects that could have looked like weapons. All in all a too bad situation, how would you fix this situation? Wait for PID on weapons?
This isn't as black and white as you portray it.
Fairly, COL Gentile, I often
Fairly, COL Gentile, I often hear the myth from soldiers that somehow we're losing because media access forces us to be all nice and sweet about casualties and if we could just go in and kick a lot of ass it'd long since have been game over. Nonetheless I agree with your implication that that misperception is fortunately absent at the level of the policy-debaters.
This is why Wikileaks first
This is why Wikileaks first major disclosure, the "Collateral Murder" videotape, deserves more attention. If you THINK you see an insurgent, you need to recall that the consequences of being wrong far outweigh the benefit of being right. Yet I've heard many seemingly well-informed people telling me that if you watch the entire unedited videotape you will see that the Apache crew acted properly. I can't agree -- the end result was dead civilians who were NOT insurgents, along with wounded children. Net loss for the US military. No way to win a 4G war.
Exactly the reason we should
Exactly the reason we should not get involved in Libya ! Maybe that is your point Andrew.......
The discussion is getting old. How much are we going to pay out to the families. It is like winning the lottery....Americans made all the survivors of 9.11 millionaires ! I am not saying that getting your spouse killed in a world trade center is a good way to get rich or that having you family killed off by American troops is the way to feed what is left of your family. How many people loose family member each day and it hardly makes it to the news paper ? Afghan kid collecting firewood falls off a cliff....no one knows.
This is the point: If the US was not involved.........it would be moot.
Hillary Clinton yesterday in front of God and country was implying that Libya might be a Somalia.
I do not see any basis for that statement.......there are a lot of differences in the countries.
You can not yell fire in a crowded theater.....why is US Sec of State allowed to make comments like this in public?
Gates has it right, time to shut the F -up. We should not commit to anything that we can afford to pay for. Right now the US can not afford to pay for anything! Think we have two weeks of budget left ! Yeah I know, it will get extended and we will keep spending. We will keep justifying our expenses by saying, "it is just a little bit of the budget, why not.....".
Bullshit Abu M. You have
Bullshit Abu M. You have failed, and so has the effort. Petreaus is failing cuz he has fallen victim to his own BS - the Serge where we won by passing out chocolate and Sharia compliant nylons. As he lacks local militia heavies to do the dirty work (Shia, Badr, etc) it's being exposed as the fraud it is and was, a fraud that did successfully mislead the Academic Left for a time, but no more.
You are pissing away far more than money here, we are pissing away the lives and limbs of our most precious resource, the tiny minority of us and our youth in a failed attempt at social work in battle. Obamacare for the Battlefield.
The Afghans are no one's friend, including each others. They are just milking the public US tit, and biding their time. Not at all unlike our putative local allies all over the world. If they we're truly our friends, we'd be busy betraying them.
Get them the Hell out of there. We don't have enough youth of that Caliber to waste on pipe dreams.
Ralph H et al, We did
Ralph H et al,
We did something similar, and at the end of the day the forever Hostile village was pacified. By the Iron Fist. Everybody's friends now. The only 4 in 4G is you have to make it look nice in the media. That's why we have Bullshit..oh excuse me, COIN.
Well if you read Bing West's
Well if you read Bing West's new book "The Wrong War" he is certainly on the "enemy centric" side of things; that is to say he believes that the way to suceed in Afghanistan is by doing what he says the marines are doing now, focusing on killing the taliban enemy, and letting the other elements of winning hearts and minds wait until that essential task is accomplished. Rightly or wrongly then this is the so-called "enemy centric approach." But I never saw anything from Bing, or what i have written on these matters over the last three years, that argued for "indiscriminate use of force," or its more blunt term which Andrew was implying, the indiscriminate slaughtering of civilians.
In short i think AM has created, unfairly and without proof, a straw man argument to set up his own
gian
It sounds to me a little like
It sounds to me a little like AM is responding to some of the people who comment on this board from time to time. As Gentile indicates, these are probably not representative of any significant element of public opinion.
At the same time, you have to wonder if the most correctly delivered and sincere apology for something like this is going to be as effective in the tenth year of a war as it might have been in the first. This has been one of my concerns about counterinsurgency in Afghanistan for some time now -- it's discussed as if we were starting over in a country we hadn't been operating in for the better part of a decade. The doctrine could be absolutely right, the practice without flaw, and failure could still result simply because 2009-11 is not 2002-4. In the intervening years, the enemy was allowed to get stronger and the impression among Afghans that Americans are reckless with their use of firepower strengthened.
I'm sure many people in the military community understand this, but action based on that understanding has been wanting.
These apologies for killing
These apologies for killing innocent Afghans ring completely hollow. ISAF was sorry for wiping out a wedding party in Nangahar a few years ago. It was sorry for killing scores of people in Kapisa the next year. I'm sure it was sorry for killing 65 civilians in Kunar a couple of the weeks before killing the nine kids. Petraeus will no doubt be shocked and deeply sorry for the civilians ISAF will kill over the next 30 days.
The lesson I think most people would take away is if you've made a mistake and make a big deal about being sorry for it and continue to make the mistake perhaps you don't really care. Perhaps the apology is simply CYA.
Visitor @11:59, Even if ISAF
Visitor @11:59,
Even if ISAF is genuinely sorry, the war goes on and further mistakes are inevitable, no matter how hard ISAF tries to prevent them. Such is the nature of war. The only way to prevent accidents is to pull the plug on fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan. And frankly, I don't have a problem with that!
Seems to me the historical
Seems to me the historical record shows it's not whether you kill children, but how you kill them.
There's no question that shooting children from helicopters will radicalize the Afghan people and prolong the insurgency. The problem is (a) shooting, which is too personal; and (b) helicopters, which fly too close to the ground. It gives the Krauts, excuse me, the wogs, the idea that they can fight back. Mistaken, of course, but you know your wog.
Also, all this weeping, bowing and sorrying makes him think you're a bit light in the loafers - like you whacked the kids, but you didn't really mean to. It's pussy stuff. There's nothing a Kraut or a wog hates more than being ruled by a pussy. He's a real man and manhood matters to him.
So it's time to go back to basics. If you want to quell an insurgency or even better keep it from getting started, the only solution is fixed-wing aircraft at high altitude, and lots of burning magnesium. Fire: impersonal, terrifying, irresistible. Nine boys? Please. Back in the '40s I fried about 100,000 cute, dewy-cheeked little Krautlings just this way. Heard much lately from the Werewolves? Now that's what I call scientific cause and effect!
I think Zathras is right
I think Zathras is right about the 'taking the gloves off' rhetoric. You never hear anything like that from the uniformed military, it's more in the realm of anonymous internet commenting and angry man on the street type of ranting (sometimes from vets, usually not). You'll never find someone like Exum express anything like that, but go on militaryphotos.net or any other number of war-porn/gear-do wannabe sites and it's actually fairly prevalent. Just as an aside, I always thought that was wrong not only from a moral perspective but also because it hasn't worked. The Russians have been about as brutal as you can be to the Caucasians in Chechnya, Daegestan, Ingushetia, etc. and yet they have airport and subway bombings and a never ending presence of FSB and spetsnatz to show for it.
OK, perhaps i pushed back on
OK, perhaps i pushed back on AM too quickly in that I was thinking of published works that had argued for "indiscriminate force" when perhaps Andrew was responding more specifically to posts on this blog, which to be honest i have not followed closely over the last year or so.
gian
"You'll never find someone
"You'll never find someone like Exum express anything like that"
This is not because he is a veteran, but because he is a Leftist who drank the PC COIN Kool Aid.
Non PC COIN has worked time and time again for centuries. History did not start in 1945, chief.
BLUF, who ever had weaps
BLUF, who ever had weaps release authority fucked up. Like it or not ISAF/NATO ROE is very definative on CAS. PID / Hostile Intent / Hostile Act. If any of those criteria can't be established, it's a no go.
I'm sure there's a back story, but that doesn't change the ROE. And whether the strategy is called COIN or Slash and Burn, in the history of warfare it has never been a good idea to kill unarmed children.
For Harris, the tough guy WW II bomber pilot; if you're okay w/ the 100,000 cute Krautlings you fried, your deal. We don't operate like that these days. This has nothing to do w/ COIN, it's maintaining the moral high ground and human decency. I can assure you the fight is radically different on the ground than at high altitude.
Last point already made by Visitor regarding Libya where everyone's armed and neither side wants us there.
"For Harris, the tough guy WW
"For Harris, the tough guy WW II bomber pilot; if you're okay w/ the 100,000 cute Krautlings you fried, your deal. We don't operate like that these days. This has nothing to do w/ COIN, it's maintaining the moral high ground and human decency. I can assure you the fight is radically different on the ground than at high altitude."
@NAVGUNS,
Disband. Come home and disband. No kidding. All stations on all nets, disband at rally point CONUS.
On Operations -- he's quite correct. These days ISAF, NATO, UN, and the rest of our alphabet soup that bankrupted us and the world don't operate that way. Which is why they fail and we are bankrupted, Osama knew his enemy well.
If you are wondering what the fall-back is after we acknowledge you Lippanzer Stallions aren't the deal anymore, there's both a home war and a foreign war plan:
Home war: FBI and LE make the JTTF lists of terrorists public, following long established precedent of making the names and addresses of very dangerous people public.
Foreign War: Letters of Marque and Reprisal are issued and this is handled by mercs. As indeed it increasingly is.
As our actual fighting men know, the uniform is as obsolete as lances, more so. It makes you a target without affording you the status of solider if prisoner and it's protection, neither does it protect the civilian by differentiating the combatant from non-combatant.
"We don't operate like that
"We don't operate like that these days. This has nothing to do w/ COIN, it's maintaining the moral high ground and human decency."
That's why you've lost just about every single COIN effort since 1945. And yet, amazingly, you can't seem to make the connection! There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Abu M, Even the Mongols
Abu M,
Even the Mongols didn't kill "indiscriminately" nor did the Romans. Terrorizing a civilian population won't cause you to lose, history is full of "brave", "warrior" peoples who were destroyed by a more ruthless foe. The problem is when you try to go halvsy, like the Russians or the 19th-century Brits.
"it's maintaining the moral
"it's maintaining the moral high ground and human decency."
Did someone explain what happens when your ordinance meets Human Flesh?
this is the part where I say disband, and I mean it. Let mercs handle this, at a fraction of the cost.
Four days ago, as my convoy
Four days ago, as my convoy was rolling through the dangerous terrain just west of the Helmand River, a vehicle several behind mine reported up in an anxious tone that it had spotted a man on a nearby rooftop with an AK-47 who was behaving suspiciously, not realizing that my vehicle was actually much closer to the individual in question and that I had a much clearer view. It was a ten year old kid with a walking stick.
And as it happened we were about to get attacked, but by someone else.
My comment isn't meant to excuse the horrifying misjudgment of those helicopter pilots or their gunners, but sometimes when you're walking around with a hammer...
Hell, everything looks like a nail anyway, and doesn't.
Maintaining the moral high
Maintaining the moral high ground is expected of all military troops operating in AFG and Iraq before that. It is not negotiable or situational.
While this imperative may be inherent to COIN operations, I am not a COINdinista. From my view, our biggest problem w/ COIN in AFG is that it isn't Iraq.
If the Awakening hadn't taken place in Anbar, we may be had pressed to sell COIN's success. Regarding AFG, we still haven't seen that "Awakening" moment. But we have seen the Karzi govenment become increasingly aggressive towards United States civil and military operations.
AFG has a history of playing various western nations (empires) against each other. As the US continues to maintain stability, the Karzi administration is courting the Chinese and Russian governments on various projects that have untold economic benefit.
Nicely played if you happen to be one of the recipients of economic benefit w/out paying the price for security.
9 children are killed and out
9 children are killed and out of 25 comments, only four have anything useful to say about how this horror could have occurred. Everything else was about scoring "big picture" points or tough guy posturing. Thank you to Navguns and the two visitors.
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The old WW2 fart is right. An
The old WW2 fart is right. An even older strategy would be to poison wells, kill livestock, burn crops, bulldoze villages and pursue into Pakistan and if the Pakistanis get involved, good.
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