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The Rebels Love Us, Right?
I was looking through the Sinjar documents (.pdf) today because I remembered (incorrectly, as it turns out) that Benghazi had sent more foreign fighters to Iraq than any other city in the Arabic-speaking world. On a per capita basis, though, twice as many foreign fighters came to Iraq from Libya -- and specifically eastern Libya -- than from any other country in the Arabic-speaking world. Libyans were apparently more fired up to travel to Iraq to kill Americans than anyone else in the Middle East. And 84.1% of the 88 Libyan fighters in the Sinjar documents who listed their hometowns came from either Benghazi or Darnah in Libya's east. This might explain why those rebels from Libya's eastern provinces are not too excited about U.S. military intervention. It might also give some pause to those in the United States so eager to arm Libya's rebels.
I agree with your reasoning,
I agree with your reasoning, but I think the regime was facilitating the travel to Iraq for those who are known to be dangerous to the regime to be left in Libya. So the regime was killing two birds with one stone. Gadhafi couldn't go wrong killing Americans and his enemies in Libya while sitting pretty in Tripoli and bargaining with Americans how he is America's first defenses against Alqaeda.
Don't you think that is a
Don't you think that is a rather small sample size to be making judgments about an entire region? Hell, the Westboro Baptist Church has more members than that - I guess Kansas is a breeding ground of gay-hating troop-hating anti-Americans.
Hope to visit your blog
Hope to visit your blog often, saw it on Fred Kaplan's Slate blog.
I also hope we are not going to rush into a third war.
If the Congo had loads of oil for sale, would we get involved?
Shades of the East Front
Shades of the East Front 1942. Maybe there's a method to letting them bleed each other out a little longer? Stalingrad on the Med.
If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.
W.C.
What ever happened to: The
What ever happened to: The Enemy of My Enemy = is my Friend. ???????
As long as they get the job done AM.... We should only give them enough supplies / support to get the job done... The Colonel has got to GO! After that, if we can assist and they want help, why not, but we shouldn't go out of our way to give them 100%.
Your first commenter makes a
Your first commenter makes a very good point. Heck, it's not much different from when Castro emptied his prisons and psych wards and graciously let the freed inmates head towards Florida...
112 individuals? You're
112 individuals?
You're basing your conclusion about the attitudes of a population of nearly 1,610,000 people on the actions of 112 individuals? For someone who derides others for sloppy social science, that's just absurd. 112 people is a self-selecting sample of less than 0.007% of the population. That's lower than the violent crime rate in Tennessee in 2009 (~0.67%).
And is it possible - just possible - that part of the reason for the exodus of Libyan extremists to Iraq was that they didn't like their chances in Libya? Either because of Qaddafi's violent repression (as described by the CTC document to which you linked) or a lack of traction among the Libyan population?
You're not doing your argument against intervention any favors by making such spurious arguments. There are other, better arguments, but the very fact that you feel you have to reach for this silliness suggests you're not all that confident in them.
Or, might be a great chance
Or, might be a great chance for payback.
You're falling for the usual
You're falling for the usual Catch-22. So long as Arab regimes are oppressive the only people who will fight them are fanatics. But in order to prevent extremists from winning we have to support the autocrats.
I'm not at all convinced that most of the rebels in Eastern Libya are Muslim extremists. Some, sure, but what seems to have characterized the early takeover in Benghazi was broad support for the insurgency and the lack of internecine fighting.
If the Qaddafis hold on the future of Libya, I suspect, will be a lot like what happened in Iraq from 1992-2003. The regime itself will be made up of wealthy pariahs, civil society will be nearly destroyed, the people will be impoverished, and the international community will have no way of normalizing the situation.
Much is made of the supposed
Much is made of the supposed lack of traction that AQ (core) is getting from the Arab Spring.
Let one US boot or bomb land on the Maghreb and that changes fast.
People who are violent or live amongst the violent will if they are losing reach for the Devil's cell number if cornered. May well regret it later, but then it's too late.
AQ is the only Arab or Muslim Force to humble the US, or for that matter the West since what, Gordon being massacred at Khartoum?
If we go in there we will have given the enemy his greatest victory since 9/11.
The Turks secured large-scale
The Turks secured large-scale battlefield victories against British forces in Mesopotamia and at Gallipoli, though they eventually lost the war.
The Chechens defeated the Russians in the First Chechen War, if you count Russia as Western.
Both the Russians and the Americans required large-scale defections on the opposition side to defeat persistent insurgencies, both of which are still ongoing at a much reduced level.
We have no traction, ties or
We have no traction, ties or interests in Libya. And what happens when real life isn't as hip as the latest Facebook Fad?
Don't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
And as I have been saying, when this gets tough today's Nick Kristoff's are tomorrow's Andrew Sullivan. Piss off you are not serious people.
Referring back to the
Referring back to the original post there's an interesting insight on this in the cablegate files
In 2008 the US approached the Libyan government to offer 'counter-ideological or soft power programming' in eastern Libya to counter the perceived strength of extremists. Whether this perception was correct or not is another matter. The offer was declined by the Libyan government in favour of their normal methods of dealing with these things. http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2008/04/08TRIPOLI307.html
Once again, you've made the
Once again, you've made the point: It's all about us. The overthrow of Gaddafi is really about sticking it to the great defender of democracy and freedom, the US. Nothing to do with the uprisings stretching across the Arab world right now. All that said, my favorite part is a line like this: "On a per capita basis, though, twice as many foreign fighters came to Iraq from Libya..." Weren't US forces "foreign"? Weren't there hundreds of thousands of those? With really, really big bombs?
@ visitor 9:26 a.m., who
@ visitor 9:26 a.m., who wrote:
All that said, my favorite part is a line like this: "On a per capita basis, though, twice as many foreign fighters came to Iraq from Libya..." Weren't US forces "foreign"? Weren't there hundreds of thousands of those?
Somehow you missed the end of the sentence you quoted: " ... than from any other country in the Arabic-speaking world." I don't believe the US forces, foreign though they certainly were, came from the Arabic-speaking world.
I get a kick out many who
I get a kick out many who "accuse" the U.S. of having some form of selfish motive for going in to another
country. Some will say "They are after the oil", or whatever, but fact is - they take nothing !
I can't believe that so many people are really that naive, resorting to childish remarks like that.
If a drunk driver come speeding down the street and killed your child. then kept driving, what would most
of us expect ? The police to hunt that person down, and bring him/her back to justice, despite your anger,
wanting vengeance on that person, more than what the court will deliver. Could you imagine, after you
called the police, if they did nothing, except get in front of the press and make a statement, saying -
"Our prayers go out to the parents, and we hope this doesn't happen again..."
Well, terrorists walked in to the U.S.(more than once), and murdered over 2000 of your brothers and sisters,
your parents and friends. Then they left, leaving a big smile on bin Laden's face.
Did you all seriously expect your government to sit back and simply say "Please don't do that again",
"Please don't do that again.".....No, you would expect those responsible to be hunted down and brought
back to justice, no matter how long it takes.
Its not just a mission of hunting for one person, its a war, because the terrorist network is so huge, a
little helicopter with a POLICE decal on the side is not going to cut it.
I don't even live in the U.S and I could of thrown up, when I saw how many people opposed the whole idea
of going into other countries to battle this problem. Do you really think the AQ will turn themselves in?
You most certainly can not rely on the competence of foreign countries to track down any of them for you.
The terrorists would most likely have their heads sent back to their supervisor in a box.
Some of you obviously didn't understand the words of your government, when it was once said -
"...and those who harbour him."
Hey, guess what ? President Bush is gone. You voted in a new president. The troops are still in Afghanistan,
the troops are still in Iraq, and The U.S. already has a warship and sub hanging around Libya.
Its not one man or two presidents going after the terrorists, its the United States Government that finally
stood up and said enough is enough. But if your thinking that care bears are going to fall from the sky
and make everything better with no war, peace, love, etc., pack up and move to Disneyland.(or Mexico).
The U.S. is not trying to utilize a temporary fix on terrorism, but even though terrorists will never be
rid of completely, it's like shovelling your sidewalk in the winter. You have to keep on it, so it doesn't
build up so much, you can't walk on your own land anymore.
Every city and geographical region has its violent criminals on this earth, but your neighbour is not just
the couple you bbq with on the weekend. I was really disappointed when I seen all those protesters who
crawled out of the woodwork to oppose the U.S. going in to Iraq, but yet, you didn't see them all on the
governments' doorstep protesting for more help to feed all the dying people in starving countries.
I met a woman who married a man from one of those starving countries. He took her over to tour his country,
and she said "I will never go back there". She said children would grab her and ask "When is help coming?"
The so-called "donations" that people so graciously give from countries like U.S., Canada, etc., they are
indeed getting to the country, but the "corrupt" government is not dispersing it, as they should.
She witnessed people being stopped by the authorities and asked for money. If they didn't have any, they
would be taken to jail and held until a relative brought them the money.
That is a good example of the real world, when a country is run by a corrupt dictator or regime. The people
have no one to turn to and their "neighbours" just turn the other cheek. I would anticipate there is many
that sit around praying "When will the west come and help us?"
There is more people dying of starvation and diseases in one month in those countries, than there has been
total U.S. casualties in the war on terrorism, but nobody's government is working on a solution.
So I personally don't even care what excuse a U.S. president (or any other leader) gives for going into
a country like Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya, they are going to accomplish want I would like to see.
Yes, in war. lives are sacraficed, and that will always be an element of bringing democracy to a country,
let alone taking a bite out of terrorism.
And to forum post "elf" above in quoting him "AQ is the only Arab or Muslim Force to humble the US" -
You will come to realize (this year) that the U.S. is far away from ever being "humbled" in this century.
Some countries hate the U.S. because of their military and world political power. Some countries hate
the U.S. because of the wealth of democracy. Some foreign citizens hate the U.S. simply because they can
walk in to their kitchen and get water from a tap, or flick a switch and get heat.
But most innocent foreigners dream of the freedom U.S. citizens have compared to their own life.
I would encourage them all to start singing "Rock of Gibraltar"
Great war speech Reality
Great war speech Reality Buff. Are you doing any of this fighting that you advocate? Have you sacrificed any one in your family to "...bring() democracy to a country..."? Change your name to "Bravado Buff".
Thats really sherwd! Good to
Thats really sherwd! Good to see the logic set out so well.
Tankhs for sharing. What a
Tankhs for sharing. What a pleasure to read!
I found your this post while
I found your this post while searching for some related information on blog search...Its a good post..keep posting and update the information.
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