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Quote of the Day: Keepin' It Classy Edition
"These murders neatly sum up the frenzy and depravity within Palestinian society, surely the sickest on earth." -- Daniel Pipes.
Yes, three murders surely give us all the data we need to pass such a judgment on the four million people in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Let's all now kick off the weekend by remembering the man who said the above quotation was once nominated to the board of the U.S. Institute of Peace. Yes, 2003 was surely the high-water mark in relations between the United States and the Arabic-speaking world...
"three murders surely give us
"three murders surely give us all the data we need to pass such a judgment on the four million people in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem."
LOL, we have a little more evidence than just three murders to prove that Palestinian society is frenzied and depraved.
hey, friendly fire
hey, friendly fire dude.
Pipes just fragged your sociology initiative.
Shit happens.
Whenever the Palestinians
Whenever the Palestinians shoot an antitank rocket at a schoolbus, stab a family, kill a hostage, rocket a city, blow up a pizzeria full of kids, etc., it's an isolated incident-Pipes is a bad, bad, bad man for trying to see these many, many isolated incidents as parts of a trend.
Whereas, of course, whenever an Israeli bulldozer runs over an activist who's thrown herself under it, or their navy commandos plug some dudes coming after them with crowbars, these are evidence of a genocidal, fascist Israeli regime's policies based on blatant disregard for human life, just war theory or any sort of humanistic values.
As for you, Fnord, you just keep at it-before too long, the Islamic Liberation Front of Norway will give you some incidents closer to home to place in context and prevent your countrymen from exhibiting racist reactions to.
I disagree with Pipes on a
I disagree with Pipes on a lot of things, but if you're going to quote him, do so fairly. First, the blog post to which you link, read in its entirety, itself contains links to other items of evidence. Second, again, when your read the post in its entirety, you see that he states explicitly that its intended to be the stub of an ever-expanding (unfortunately) list of similar items to which readers can contribute (in the referential, not physical, sense :-)). Third, I think a fair reading of "neatly sums up" is "efficiently represents" rather than "constitutes incontrovertible proof." In other words, this isn't supposed to be an exercise in deduction; it's simply supposed to bring people's attention to examples of what Pipes considers a larger sociological trend.
I don't know if I'd say Palestinian society is the "sickest on earth." I don't even know what that means, really. From experience, though, I can say that very large portions of Palestinian society are anti-Semitic and have zero interest in a peace treaty with Israel, and that abnormally large (even for the Arab world) portions of Palestinian society view suicide bombing as a noble aspiration. There's also a disturbing lack of interest in veracity among Palestinians whenever journalists happen to be around (I tried to put that as tactfully as possible, but I think anyone who's ever served in the Middle East knows what I'm getting at).
I disagree with Pipes on a
I disagree with Pipes on a lot of things, but if you're going to quote him, do so fairly. First, the blog post to which you link, read in its entirety, itself contains links to other items of evidence. Second, again, when your read the post in its entirety, you see that he states explicitly that its intended to be the stub of an ever-expanding (unfortunately) list of similar items to which readers can contribute (in the referential, not physical, sense :-)). Third, I think a fair reading of "neatly sums up" is "efficiently represents" rather than "constitutes incontrovertible proof." In other words, this isn't supposed to be an exercise in deduction; it's simply supposed to bring people's attention to examples of what Pipes considers a larger sociological trend.
I don't know if I'd say Palestinian society is the "sickest on earth." I don't even know what that means, really. From experience, though, I can say that very large portions of Palestinian society are anti-Semitic and have zero interest in a peace treaty with Israel, and that abnormally large (even for the Arab world) portions of Palestinian society view suicide bombing as a noble aspiration. There's also a disturbing lack of interest in veracity among Palestinians whenever journalists happen to be around (I tried to put that as tactfully as possible, but I think anyone who's ever served in the Middle East knows what I'm getting at).
The larger point, gang, is
The larger point, gang, is that you will never hear me making -- and it would never be acceptable for anyone to make -- broad statements about Israeli society or the Jewish people based on the actions of hilltop settlers in the West Bank.
Andrew, what other way can
Andrew, what other way can one describe a society that breeds shaheeds, elects a genocidal terror group whose Charter and mission statement makes Mein Kampf look like a Dr.Seuss book, who fire Kornet missiles at school buses and who just murdered an entire family - and then 30% of whom overwhelmingly approved of this 'mission'. What other way can you describe such society besides 'depraved'?
the difference between the Jewish settlers (none of whom have blown up a bus or a school btw), and Palestinians, is that the settlers are a small % of the population, most of which overwhelmingly supports living in peace with their Arab neighbors, and have given away land and money in support of this idea.
Palestinians in turn elect a government whose stated goal makes it very clear that they want to drive every Jew into the sea. Please dont even try to compare the 2 sides as being anywhere equal in moral terms. The continual propagation of 'cycle of violence' myth.
Do the settlers on the
Do the settlers on the Hilltop (whose combined score doesn't come close) name streets after their brave warriors when they heroically murder babies and children under 5? Wall murders of Sbarros bombings? Are they given a heroes welcome after being released from prison? Does the Jewish world celebrate when Jews murder Pal children? Do the settlers consider murder to be the highest form of religious devotion? Are the Jews totally committed to the extinction of Arabs within Eretz Israel? Is that the unwavering demand and rasion d'etre for their entire (meh) "state"?
These aren't isolated incidents, it's the entire point - and apparently only reason - of the Palestinians - the destruction of Israel. I bought into the Homeland for the Pals until the second intifada. That and 9/11 - and the spontaneous jubilation - kinda of cleared things up for me.
It's like the HUMMV Victory Dance - except over beheaded babies. It should make things clearer.
Perhaps the words of their democratically elected leadership would help: we love death more than you love life. It's a State of Mind. They've never had a home, the PA and Oslo was as close as they got - only because the Israelis reached out - and they proceeded to blow it up. By now they should know they'll never have more than they have now, and come what may won't keep that. If there came into being a "Palestine" with Israel destroyed, the surrounding Arab states would annihilate it. They know full well what they're dealing with, and the only solution.
***Daniel Pipes is a class act. It doesn't make him mince his words about massacres of children. ***
Does anyone remember Baruch
Does anyone remember Baruch Goldstein? The American-born settler that gunned down 29 innocent Palestinians?
Yo Elfy, this is a religious turf war that should be of zero concern to true Americans. Pipes and friends are the same ones that dragged us into Iraq and wish for us to engage Iran.
The Palestinians are
The Palestinians are perfectly normal human beings. It's their American (and European) sponsors who drive them nuts. We saw this in the cables - it's always State persuading the Arabs to return to their Pal-insanity. Cut off the UN/US/EU gravy train, and the entire Palestinian society, from kindergarteners to graybeards will return to reality in months, like a schizo back on his meds.
Best of all, you could cut off the Israelis too. The only reason Israel has anything to fear, militarily, from any Arab country, is because the Arabs have big friends in Washington (and once, Moscow). The only reason the Arabs are crazy enough to beat on the Israelis: same. Plus, Israelis are notorious assholes and are known not to wash under their yarmulkes - breeding enormous mutant Jew headlice with horns.
So why are my tax dollars going to any of these pigfsckers? Let them eat falafel. In fact, we could deport all the Arabists to a romantic Arab country of their choice, and all the AIPACers to Israel. Intractable foreign-policy problem, solved.
"Do the settlers on the
"Do the settlers on the Hilltop (whose combined score doesn't come close) name streets after their brave warriors when they heroically murder babies and children under 5?"
Oh, you'd be surprised how many Irgun and Stern commanders had streets named after them, just a few years after rolling grenades into Arab market squares, sniping at civilians and blowing up buses. When Israel was in Palestine's situation, tactics were not very different, even if Israel had the advantage of reasonable cohesion, a well-organized mainstream paramilitary (Haganah) and strong leadership.
And religious zealots and ultranationalists are the same the world over. Make Israelis stateless and in a perpetual war for independence, revenge and whatnot -- then fast-forward 50 years, and you'll find that today's fascists (Kahanists), fundamentalists (Shas), ultranationalists (NRP), and racists (Lieberman), who were reasonably peaceful under the protection of an army and a strong state, will have developed a real nasty style of combat not very different from Hamas or PFLP. You think an armed underground wing of Shas would care for Palestinian civilians?
In fact, it's already starting to happen in areas of the West Bank as the Hilltop Youth begin to disassociate from the Israeli state post-2005, and you see them go off on an ideological tangent and start inventing shit like the "price tag" operations.
A- There's a Russian saying
A-
There's a Russian saying about your line of argument: "if grandma had a dick, she would have been grandpa."
Pipes was against the Iraq
Pipes was against the Iraq war. Which we did all on our own without help from the Israeli's. Both 91 and 03 were hardly in Israel's interests. Unless one believes that Al-Sabaq and Al-Saud are secretly Israeli's. Good and bad Iraq's on us, and Saddam the terminally stupid.
Andrew, how exactly is "the
Andrew, how exactly is "the larger point"-that you scrupulously reject broad condemnations of Isreal based on cherry picked events-advanced by broadly condemning Daniel Pipes based on a cherry picked quote?
I learned, on the jihadwatch
I learned, on the jihadwatch website, that Salafists are scary because they're pro-Sharia.
Suppose Pipes' statement,
Suppose Pipes' statement, "These murders neatly sum up the frenzy and depravity within Palestinian society, surely the sickest on earth." were replaced with this statement: "The Charter of Hamas neatly sum[s] up the frenzy and depravity within Palestinian society, surely the sickest on earth."
Would you concur? Would this be more acceptable? Or is THAT also objectionable?
Daniel Pipes is an asshole.
Daniel Pipes is an asshole. Always has been.
Yeah, on Goldstein I know
Yeah, on Goldstein I know that the Israeli society buldozed a shrine extremists set up to him, which, again, is obviously a pretty obvious contrast to the treatment murderers get from Palestinian society.
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