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Really, Google?
April 12, 2011 | Posted by Abu Muqawama - 11:12am | 38 Comments
So Google chooses today to celebrate the achievements of a brutal totalitarian regime (that one of its founders fled!) instead of the 150th anniversary of the war that freed the slaves and unified the United States of America. Super.
Does Google usually do
Does Google usually do America-only events? You can make the argument that the First Man in Space is a first for the entire world, while the Battle of Fort Sumter (while very important to Americans), was not such a significant event to non-Americans.
Not to mention issues in showing it. Are you going to show a Ft.Google getting bombarded?
Well, the first human in
Well, the first human in space is a milestone that everyone in the world can relate to. The Civil War is for the most part only important to Americans.
Human spaceflight was an
Human spaceflight was an achievement for all mankind.
Nice job at positioning, AM.
Nice job at positioning, AM. AM, usually breathless in his praise of things Southern, suddenly becomes a proud Unionist when the time comes to stick it to the Russkies.
Considering that the (still
Considering that the (still racially segregated) Americans of the 1950s had no qualms of using the achievements of an extremely brutal totalitarian regime for their own space program but got beaten to orbit by a brutal totalitarian regime that also used former members of the same extremely brutal totalitarian regime, I don't really think you got reason to complain about google ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev#Ballistic_missiles
Especially if one considers that Lincoln at first only fought for the preservance of the Union, and it took him quite a while before he decided to emancipate the slaves ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_civil_war#Emancipation_during_the_war
Visitor 12:00, I am a proud
Visitor 12:00, I am a proud East Tennessean, which is different from being a proud Southerner. (Though I do, in general, love the peoples and cultures of the American South.) You need to go back and read some more Civil War history if you do not understand how an East Tennessean is also a Unionist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Tennessee#The_Civil_War
What I like is that so many
What I like is that so many people feel so free to condemn the Confederacy, and side with the Union, without having read a single book, essay or pamphlet by a Confederate or pro-Confederate. If you're guilty, raise your hand! It's good to see that everyone is so open-minded in the 21st century, especially Americans.
It's also important to note (as the previous poster does) that our interpretation of the war is the Confederate perspective. To the Union, at least initially, the war was a crusade to protect the Constitution from the Slave Power Conspiracy. To the Confederates, it was a gigantic version of the John Brown raid, an insane Puritan-abolitionist fanatical crusade.
Later on, of course, everyone acknowledged that yes, it was a gigantic John Brown raid - but that was actually a good thing. Own it! It's not really surprising that, 150 years after John Brown, Americans have to walk through metal detectors at the airport.
Fortunately, thanks to Google, we can skip the Confederate apologists (mostly inferior, the later the worse) and go straight to the real thing. I find Admiral Semmes a very pleasant introduction. On slavery, try the Rev. Adams (a Puritan minister in Boston, btw) or the more bracing Fitzhugh. Fine overall polemics come from the Rev. Dabney (Stonewall Jackson's personal minister) and the awesome T.W. MacMahon. The last is perhaps most representative of Confederate ideology.
I look forward to seeing the Stars n' Bars on my homepage as soon as Sergey has read these important materials...
Gave rise to the nation that
Gave rise to the nation that dominated the 20th and (so far) 21st century. It was, as the appropriatly titled but otherwise worthless movie put it, the "Birth of a Nation". More important than lil ol Yuri? Hmm.
A little american centered
A little american centered Andrew ? Don't you think ? ;-)
You can move beyond narrow
You can move beyond narrow nationalistic viewpoints and accept that Yuri's trip was an achievement for all of mankind, and certainly something more apt for celebration than the beginning of a cruel war that killed 600,000 people.
Actually AM, I am aware of
Actually AM, I am aware of Unionism in the Southeast, having come from the place. East TN, and Appalachia, wasn't the only area of Unionism. I was just messing with you. And I am familiar with East TN's Unionist history. But East TN, culturally and genealogically speaking, is part of the Southeast. East TN is much closer to the Southern cultural center than Creole Louisiana, Low Country Carolina, or Texas. Would it be fair to say that many of those Civil War era East Tenneseans had siblings and cousins in West TN, KY, VA, SC, AL, MS, TX, AR, or Missouri who were Confederates?
MM, I can simplify Southern political theory for you, local elites will maintain economic and political power by any means necessary. They were and are happy to use small government rhetoric and xenophobia when it suits their purpose, which it usually did, but they also willing to use the Federal government and a bellicose cosmopolitanism to enforce their prerogatives. The cultural and religious stuff is fine and good, provided it isn't an economic liability. The pro-cheap labor Chamber of Commerce and the M.I.C. & Defense Industry is closer to the Southern ethic than neo-Confederate ideologues like Clyde Wilson or their 19th-century predecessors.
Hypothesis: If Gagarin had
Hypothesis: If Gagarin had been American, Abu Muqawama would ...
You finish it!
"You can move beyond narrow
"You can move beyond narrow nationalistic viewpoints and accept that Yuri's trip was an achievement for all of mankind"
LOL, as if the USSR in 1961 did not represent it as a narrow nationalistic triumph, or anything!
1. A world in which the
1. A world in which the American civil war had never happened. This is, of course a difficult thought exercise, one that we could legitimately debate for years.
2. Now imagine a world in which Yuri Gagarin had never made it into space. This is actually a simple thought exercise because we would simply associate a different name and different date with "first in space" namely Alan Shepard and May 6. And you know what? A dog beat them both into space.
I toured Soviet republics in
I toured Soviet republics in 1975. They were clean, crime free, possessed free healthcare and full employment. Until the economy tanked later on in the 1980s, they were viable and attractive in their own way.
I happen to know believers of the old Soviet system, one from DDR and one from Ukraine. The Ukrainian I know says "we gained a little more freedom but lost our free healthcare and full employment."
Andrew, the achievement of space exploration was a great achievement. Korolev and Gagarin ( a fellow military officer) were heroes for all mankind. (At least Korolev wasn't an ex-Nazi who employed slave labor, to become an American citizen and run the US space program--speaking of Von Braun and "brutal")
Yes, the Civil War's 150th is something to observe. But if you're to ask me which should be celebrated--space exploration or a war--I'll choose the peaceful exploration of space every time over that of a terrible war.
"At least Korolev wasn't an
"At least Korolev wasn't an ex-Nazi who employed slave labor, to become an American citizen and run the US space program--speaking of Von Braun and "brutal"."
Yes, he was a Communist who employed slave labor, that's muuuuuuuuuch better.
Baikonur was built by slaves from the gulag, but somehow only Mittelwerk GmbH makes the news. He who controls the present controls the past, and as usual, inconvenient hatefacts wind up in the memory hole...
"The Ukrainian I know says
"The Ukrainian I know says "we gained a little more freedom but lost our free healthcare and full employment."
They also lost between 8-13 million in Stalin's Genocide in 1933-34.
And the entire Soviet Economy was based on slave Labor. Did you tour the Gulag's as well? They "lost" 40 million to "full employment" there as well.
Their Healthcare system was poor, full of corruption, if you wanted full drugs instead of water filled vials you had to go to the Black Market or be part of the NomenKlatura.
Crime Free - if you ignore the KGB, whose crimes dwarfed the SS.
The tour I think you got was called the Potemkin tour. And they still had the Gulags in 1975.
Yeah, that's kind of a weird
Yeah, that's kind of a weird comment, AM. I mean, Google's commemorations are a bit random anyway, but, Gagarin _is_ a big deal! Maybe they can commemorate the _end_ of the Civil War.
Elf, I think the Soviets
Elf, I think the Soviets called it the "useful idiot" tour -- or more colloquially, the "gavnoyed" tour.
Perhaps Google will note the
Perhaps Google will note the end of the Civil War, vice the beginning?
Peaceful exploration of
Peaceful exploration of space? On top of rockets primarily used for ICBM delivery?
On this day, the supposedly
On this day, the supposedly triumphant example of successful democracy embarked upon the first truly modern war, in which people were transformed into meat, countless racist ideologues fought to preserve a dehumanizing, monstrous institution while hiding behind a veil of states rights &c., and the first expression of the horrors of the 20th century reared their heads.
On this day, a man touched the fucking sky.
I know which event I'm planning on honoring.
Peaceful exploration of
Actually the R-7 was a pretty crummy ICBM that the Soviets replaced as soon as they could. It used liquid oxygen as an oxidizer, which meant it had to undergo an hours-long fueling process immediately before launch, and a similarly extended defueling process if it wasn't launched within about a day - no launch on warning for you! In addition it was incapable of being stored in silos, and it required a good deal of inflight radio guidance from ground stations, which might be difficult to maintain during World War III what with the EMPs and the B-52s and the OH GREAT HERE COMES ANOTHER FLIGHT OF HUSTLERS, glayven.
MM, I can simplify Southern
MM, I can simplify Southern political theory for you, local elites will maintain economic and political power by any means necessary.
Damn straight! And I don't see why they shouldn't. What means do you think global elites use?
Or don't you think there are any global elites? Or don't you agree that these elites, culturally if not always ethnically, originate in the winners of 1865? Indeed they were once local elites - the local elites of Massachusetts. Their methods, which can easily be traced across four centuries, were at no time gentle and meek.
The result of this insane (and murderous) process is that our entire planet has only one cultural elite. When it goes insane, Planet Three spins out of control and crashes into the Sun. I speak metaphorically, of course.
Uh... 40 million people dead
Uh... 40 million people dead in Gulags? Are you nuts? Between 1 000 000 and 1 600 000 over a 40 year period would be closer. That's between 4 and 7 times the current mortality rate of US prisons. But don't worry; you're getting there.
Wars which exceed twenty-four
Wars which exceed twenty-four hours in duration do not have anniversaries.
Allium, all that may be so,
Allium, all that may be so, but nevertheless that was the intended purpose of the R-7, and Khrushchev attempted to use the R-7 for political intimidation during the period when he only had a crummy ICBM but we had none at all.
Lighten up, AM. It was a
Lighten up, AM. It was a huge milestone that changed the way the humanity looked at its place in the universe, and terrific technical achievement. Five centuries from now, the only name that schoolchildren will remember from our times is Armstrong. After that, it might be Gagarin.
Rich
I don't know where you came
I don't know where you came up with a mere 1.6 million killed in the Gulag over the decades it was in Operation.
Of course we may never have accurate figures, but the Gulag Archipelago consisted of 70 (slave) Labor Camps and 45 extermination camps, spread over 1,000 miles. The Black Book of Communism published by Harvard Press puts Stalin's murders at 25 million, others put it at 40 million. Google Books will let you read it for free.
Black book of communism:
http://books.google.com/books?id=YroiOAAACAAJ&dq=the+black+book+of+commu...
or if you want to order it from Harvard U Press
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674076082
Google has the Gulag Archipelago extracts online
http://books.google.com/books?id=7Q7-CDK0G24C&printsec=frontcover&dq=The...
But hey, they had "full employment" and "free" [LOL] Healthcare. They were also Progressive, and knew how to deal with their wingnuts in a couple of ways - either shoot them, or give them jobs shooting idiot moonbats (Stalins first move, he wasn't all bad) under the auspices of the NKVD.
The Communist regimes of the 20th century killed between 100 Million (Black Book estimate) and 142 million (London Times Estimate). As the murders were actually being carried out they had nearly the entire Western Media and Intelligentsia covering for them, passing on the ridiculous cover stories, and basically rooting for Stalin the entire time. Apparently they still have their fans to this day.
It ought to be possible to
It ought to be possible to celebrate such an achievement without resorting to Soviet iconography - iconography that celebrates a vicious totalitarian ideology. Perhaps a different artistic approach by Google and a different style for the graphic?
The Soviet apologetics on this thread are an indictment of our educational system (and the ability for people to delude themselves, a la the Potemkin Village comment).
Current Intelligence had an art blog post some time back opining that a memorial to the victims of communism isn't needed.
After reading this thread, I am utterly convinced of the opposite.
@ Elf: The John Batchelor
@ Elf:
The John Batchelor Show had an interview with Stephen F. Cohen in which they discussed Cohen's book on survivors of Stalin's Gulag.
http://www.amazon.com/Victims-Return-Survivors-Gulag-Stalin/dp/1933002409
I had been meaning to buy a copy and this thread reminds me that I need to get on that....
From one of the reviewers at
From one of the reviewers at Amazon:
Wow. Okay, done commenting for now.
elf, I can't believe you're
elf, I can't believe you're having trouble with this argument. We can distinguish between the number of people that died in the Gulags (about 1.6 million, according to official figures), the number of deaths that Stalin was responsible for, and the number of deaths that communism is responsible for. At least, we should be able to.
The black book of communism
The black book of communism isnt serious history, even some of the writers backed away from the claims that they were extermination camps, many of the communists governments were bad enough without having to over-estimate their damage.
@Elf: The black book puts the
@Elf: The black book puts the total death toll of the Soviet regime at 20 million. It arrives at those numbers by counting everything, including civil wars, famines, forced deportations. While that's a sickeningly large number of deaths, it is completely empty of meaning and purpose beyond political agitation.
Holding western regimes to the same standards would quite probably yield even more horrific numbers, as the deliberate extermination of whole civilizations in africa and the americas which peaked in the 19th century is still taking its toll. The "Black book"'s sickening attempt at turning political debate into an accountancy of genocide becomes even more objectionable because, as you demonstrate, it muddies the water when in comes to appreciating the scale and nature of the real tragedy, the real humanitarian disasters and real mass murders perpetrated during the failiure of the authoritarian left. An attempt at getting things right is the least you can make if you have any shred of real sympathy for the victims of the Soviet regime.
The most extreme estimate of Gulag victims, which includes the newest available data puts the number at 1 600 000 at the most; the actual archival data puts it at 1 258 537. About 14 million people passed trough. That's "Red holocaust" by Steven Rosefielde. Enjoy.
One could describe this post
One could describe this post thusly:
How to sound like a xenophobic idiot in 39 words.
And because you put absolutely no thought into your ridiculous comment, I shall waste none on you. This is the last time I'll be reading anything you read, sir. You defy all intelligence.
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