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On Starship Troopers
The New Yorker asked Harold Bloom about military reading lists:
“It’s a very mixed bag,” Bloom said. “The two surprising entries, really quite wonderful, are E. M. Forster’s ‘A Passage to India’ and ‘The Red Badge of Courage,’ which is a considerable work of realization.” He talked about a lecture he once gave at West Point, on Walt Whitman’s “Drum-Taps,” and found that the soldiers were “immensely open to what Whitman was doing.”
What did he think about the inclusion of “Starship Troopers”?
“I can’t take that seriously, I’m sorry,” he said. “I suppose it’s on the list because that’s the world we’re headed towards.”
Bloom famously claims to be able to read 400 pages an hour, but I doubt he has in fact read Starship Troopers. I do not like science fiction literature myself, but having once read (and enjoyed) Starship Troopers because it was on a military reading list, I understand why officers and soldiers should read it. Although later adapted into a regrettable action movie, Heinlein's original novel features some wonderful explorations of the concepts of citizenship, leadership, civil-military relations, and service.
There are plenty of geuinely bad books -- <cough!> Once An Eagle <cough!> -- on military reading lists, but Starship Troopers is not one of them. As for Harold Bloom ... take it away, Carlin Romano!
Both Starship Troopers are
Both Starship Troopers are excellent in different ways - I'm afraid if you think its a 'regrettable action film' (which TBF I did on first viewing) you haven't got the point. Its more a satire of fascist militarism - which really is the world we're heading towards. The continued snobbery of certain authours towards the sci-fi and fantasy genres is also rather disappointing.
Both Starship Troopers are
Both Starship Troopers are excellent in different ways - I'm afraid if you think its a 'regrettable action film' (which TBF I did on first viewing) you haven't got the point. Its more a satire of fascist militarism - which really is the world we're heading towards. The continued snobbery of certain authours towards the sci-fi and fantasy genres is also rather disappointing.
You know, I have heard that
You know, I have heard that interpretation of Starship Troopers the movie before, but I dunno ... you don't think you're giving it too much credit?
To address the Starship
To address the Starship Troopers dialogue: It happens to be my favorite book and I'm pretty sure I've had at least three copies run off on me to friends that I've lended it to. With that said, I cry whenever I see the movie because the movie sucked that much. But with the appropriate amount of alcoholic lubrication, the 1st movie in conjunction with the third make for a grand time and a terrible hangover.
To address Once an Eagle: I both agree and disagree. The character is waaayyyy to perfect and the inter-war years are a depressive slump, but the book is a good read and in my opinion a really good indoctrination tool for the Army values. Then again, pretty much everyone I knew didn't read the whole thing either :(
Bloom predictably omits
Bloom predictably omits America's finest literary war memoir: Admiral Semmes' Memoirs of Service Afloat. In fact, I'd bet he's never even read it.
Like "300," the Verhoeven movie really is fascist propaganda. Giovanni Gentile would recognize it at once.
(Say what you want about Mussolini, but there's still an Italian quarter in Tripoli. Will there ever be an American quarter? Or is aerial destruction, not to mention civil war, social chaos and gangster government, all US foreign policy can produce? Or is this the outcome essential to America's "national security?" Hey, USG, nice job you've done with all those colonies you stole. WTF, USG? Sincerely, the reactionary fascist old Europe that used to exist.)
If nothing else, Starship
If nothing else, Starship Troopers decribes warfare in stark terms. That level of directness is rare in dialogues on the role of the military today.
Andrew, I would be interested
Andrew, I would be interested to hear your criticism regarding Once an Eagle.
Imagine implementing Starship
Imagine implementing Starship Troopers in real life, but built around today's reflective belt wearing military.
STARSHIP TROOPERS the film is
STARSHIP TROOPERS the film is a satire of militarism. It's not meant to be taken seriously. Paul Verhoeven is quite clear about this in the film commentary.
The book, regrettably, is not a satire.
When I was a lance coolie, my favorite book on the list was RIFLEMAN DODD.
Ex: agree with you on this
Ex:
agree with you on this one.
Starship Troopers is a classic, a brilliant piece of science fiction literature that was and stll is grounded in the present albeit cast in the future.
I also like the movie, but more because of how it turns some of the essential themes in the book on its head. Like in the movie how soldier, fighting chicks are equal in every way (to the point of the shower scene!) to men. But in the book, combat is the domain of men; to be sure women fly the space craft that take men to battle, but ultimately the book is about war and men, and how war bonds and transforms men.
Anybody who does not take Starship Troopers seriously should be banished to Big K (Klendathu). :)
gian
STARSHIP TROOPERS the film is
STARSHIP TROOPERS the film is a satire of militarism. It's not meant to be taken seriously. Paul Verhoeven is quite clear about this in the film commentary.
Well, he would, wouldn't he?
Imagine implementing Starship Troopers in real life, but built around today's reflective belt wearing military.
The military is a lost cause - probably even Special Forces. The only place there's any real collective manhood left: urban police departments. Creative thinking, gentlemen! Why not a police coup?
If our thin blue line got just a little bit organized, they could seize every government building in America and all the military bases while they're at it. Tomorrow. Tomorrow! Then they could deal with all the "mutts" and "sh*tbirds" who feature regularly in the SCC comments - along with the professor, journalists, and other liberal intellectuals, of course. No, you definitely wouldn't want to segregate these populations in the secure temporary housing. That would be racist, wouldn't it? Hey, man, what comes around goes around.
It's interesting to speculate on what an American police dictatorship, perhaps a birther regime under The Donald, would do from a foreign-policy perspective. Do you think the SCC commenters would want to keep bombing Libya? Or redouble our valiant, successful and remarkably inexpensive efforts in the duodenum of Central Asia? Food for thought, gentlemen, food for thought. It could happen - what couldn't? Only the dead have seen the end of history.
I /must/ say that Starship
I /must/ say that Starship Troopers is great, and it absolutely belongs on a Military Reading list. I love the movie too, but its basically an entirely different animal. insect. whatever. You've got to just /wish/ that someone would make a faithful adaptation one day.
But hey, where's the love for This Man's Army??? I got the 2004 Hardcover and it was great (not to be a suck up).
Heinlein is a giant of
Heinlein is a giant of science fiction, one of the few from the genre who actually make the "serious" reading lists. "Starship Troopers" isn't one of Heinlein's best and it's interesting that it's showing up on military reading lists. It just isn't that good a book, and its inclusion on military reading lists says more about military leaders than it does about Robert Heinlein, who was a Navy officer and who could probably be best described as libertarian in his viewpoint. Heinlein was very sympathetic to the military, knew the military, but one suspects he would be most impatient with today's military. Contrast "Stranger in a Strange Land" with "Starship Troopers."
Heinlein was a brilliant man. What happens with guys like him is they become cartoonish figures because they did science fiction. And then they get used after they're dead. Military people who put together reading lists feel free to include folks like Heinlein even though there is evidence out there that they wouldn't have wanted to have anything to do with many of those leaders. You decide: Heinlein as right winger? Or not? That's really what we get from the cartoon folks.
And I don't understand why Exum wouldn't like "Once an Eagle." That good novel really points out what a soap opera the military really is. Actually, Anton Myrer's book is pretty faithful to how the military is. Or maybe Exum and the rest of you were in a different military than I was.
What's wrong with Once an
What's wrong with Once an Eagle? I thought it was excellent.
SCI-FI has been part of the
SCI-FI has been part of the Marine Corps professional reading program, for all ranks, since at least 1997 with Ender's Game, and later Starship Troopers. Why? The books focused on tactical decision-making, mental agility and other related concepts.
Here's a piece written by a Marine Officer regarding insights gained from Ender's game... http://www.2ndbn5thmar.com/dm/EnderMcBreen1998.pdf
Cheers/Semper fi,
SWOT Hunter
http://www.swothunters.com
The awesomest piece of
The awesomest piece of military literature, I think, is Love My Rifle More Than You.
It's very demonstrative of the ability and desire of US MI to adapt to counterinsurgency and raise the bar.
1. I can't believe anyone
1. I can't believe anyone thought the Starship Troopers film was intended to be Fascist propaganda
2. I can't believe people take the book so seriously. It's a series of cardboard cut out characters spouting slabs of material on a political system that wouldn't be what Heinlein pretends it would be (see James Gifford's critique of the book). As a 'study of command' it's questionable, since for the protagonist there are no serious consequences of his decisions. He doesn't even show no strong emotion. The book was essentially propaganda aimed at young readers.
Starship Troopers is both an
Starship Troopers is both an excellent book and a good movie with distinct and seperate storylines though. My major disappointtment with the the movie was that it discarded the MI concept in the book. A technology like MI suits is about the only thing that would get women onto a battlefield and be as equally capable as men.
Bloom's just snarky because
Bloom's just snarky because he auditioned for the role of 'Brain Bug' in the movie but lost the part to Hitchens.
I've read Starship Troopers
I've read Starship Troopers repeatedly and also had a few copies disappear with people. I greatly enjoyed it and thought it a worthwhile read. Although, I have to say, I was rather miffed once when I overheard a staff sergeant advising a lance corporal up for a meritorious promotion board to claim he'd read Starship Troopers, and said, "They'll ask you a couple questions about it. You've seen the movie right? Okay, you're good."
Although I doubt we'd ever be able to implement Heinlein's service requirement for voting rights, I've often wondered if some service requirement to run for an elected office might work out (at the state and federal level; including town councils may be a bit excessive) . I like the idea that serving at least gives some indication that a person is willing to place the needs of his society over his personal well-being, or even his life if necessary.
One book's inclusion that I really had to question was "What They Carried." It was on the list for PFCs and up. The book discusses the fighting load of an infantryman, and claims that carried gear in excess of 40 pounds reduces fighting ability. Whether or not that's true, I can't help but wonder what use is this to a PFC? Of course he'd like to carry less stuff. But he's not the one that comes up with mandatory gear lists to be brought out into the field.
Also greatly enjoyed the
Also greatly enjoyed the book, and could kinda see what the movie was trying to do when I rewatched it.
The great flaw with the book, I think, is that it doesn't flesh out how the political system it is describing works on a nuts-and-bolts level, so it's hard to determine if it could truly work as a more demanding democracy (presumably it would include some checks and balances, and military service would not be only form of service that grants citizenship), or if it would descend into fascism (No offense to southern rural folks, but I don't think they should form the majority of America's voting block).
Another piece of science fiction that could perhaps make the 'serious military reading list' cut is The Forever War: the author basically transcribes his experiences in Vietnam into a future interstellar war, and takes it to the next level with his ideas on relativity and societal evolution.
Publius:
I'd say Heinlein became a cartoonish figure once he got tired of writing excellent books for young readers (Starship Troopers was actually the last of these if I remember correctly) and started exploring his sexual fantasies in adult novels.
@gian, et al What is Juan
@gian, et al
What is Juan Rico's nationality or ethno-linguistic group in the book? and Why this particular group in Heinlein's mind when thinking of his lead character?
1. Contrast Myrer's "Once an
1. Contrast Myrer's "Once an Eagle" to Josiah Bunting's "The Lionheads."
2. Find more truth in these on later reading -not necessarily a compliment to the authors, the service or officers wearing high rank.
3. Think Heinlein was glorifying something he knew little of. Did say that the novel ended where it did because the lead character was KIA.
V/R JWest
I do not like science fiction
I do not like science fiction literature myself........
Andrew, you are a political science puke living inside the belt way and you do not like science fiction? Think I see some deep rooted tenancies.
Makes me wonder if 1969 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMINSD7MmT4 would have happened if it were not for this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JDaOOw0MEE and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B707Ava4wrY .
Think about it while reading this guys biography... http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/vonbraun/bio.html . They had a rocket club (no it was not the Nazi party, it was before that ). They use to build up their rocket engines and test the thrust (think thrust up on a bathroom scale, it ain't rocket science).
They use to have club on the space center that launched these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxgMhHOaUSY . Some of the government ding bats gave up the only paper plans for the real one to the Boy Scouts for a paper drive. Amazing all that stuff was done by hand with out computer aided design. Think about some of the big radial engines made in WW2 ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMMvIT8brQc The people coming out of the best schools today would have a hard time getting their minds around that, design without a computer.
Star Trek was pretty edgy on the social seen. It was credited for breaking through some racial ceilings. Democrats should love that, what could be more diverse than outer space and hanging with aliens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_HKdvNhgA and it sells tee shirts.
Then were was Star Wars and Battleship Galactica. Some called Battleship Galactica, Bonanza in space http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA-PdP4k4Xw and Star Wars was nothing more then a story of good .vs. bad guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDedUcmvgL8&feature=related .
Thing that I don't get are some of the new movies where crime pays.....
Or this.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FilYgi_LZ_c
and this is special.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1FrqwZyKw
Something happened in the 60's and it was not good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSmu_JDtzVM&feature=related
Science fiction is just a story. Sometimes it has a moral statement and other times it is just someone's idea of entertainment.
My high school Journalism teacher went to school and was friends with the guy that wrote this story.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTsj3oISJlI&feature=related
That is science fiction, people who think they can travel in time are nuts. Then again after each war, we always try to put the pieces back together and rebuild things as good as new..............nuts.
Mr. Trivia: In the book,
Mr. Trivia:
In the book, Johnny Rico's father was Filipino and his mother Argentine, and he was born in Argentina. Johnny mentions at one point that he speaks Taglog.
Why did Heinlen choose to give him this ethnicty.nationality? I don't know. But if you read Heinlein's books closely, (he really doesn't hit you over the head with it), many of his protagonists are mixed race, which must have been pretty unusual back in the 50s.
"One book's inclusion that I
"One book's inclusion that I really had to question was "What They Carried." It was on the list for PFCs and up. The book discusses the fighting load of an infantryman, and claims that carried gear in excess of 40 pounds reduces fighting ability. Whether or not that's true, I can't help but wonder what use is this to a PFC? Of course he'd like to carry less stuff. But he's not the one that comes up with mandatory gear lists to be brought out into the field."
Do you mean "The Things They Carried"? Because that's not about the need to reduce the average load of a fighting soldier, any more than "Heart of Darkness" is a river pilot's guide to the Congo...
Also note the diversity in
Also note the diversity in the names of the friendly space ships. If I remember correctly one, for example, is named after the Nicaraguan anti-American rebel Augusto Sandino - i.e., hardly someone that many Americans at the time the book was written would have considered worthy of having a ship named for them.
Heinlein was the epitome of a free-thinker.
The movie's interesting as a no-thought action flick, but it's an intentional parody of the book.
Frankly, Starship Troopers is probably one of the increasingly few books on these lists that actually deserves to be there. They're increasingly nothing but politically correct popular political/business junk.
If you want sci-fi reading
If you want sci-fi reading with a somewhat military viewpoint, try the British author Iain M. Banks - "Use of Weapons" for example:
"Cheradenine Zakalwe is a soldier for the Special Circumstances unit, plucked out of a hopeless war in a primitive planet and enlisted into the Culture for his tactical brilliance and his willingness to use his intelligence for whatever side the Culture assigns him to."
re: Juan Rico The
re: Juan Rico
The Philippines was America's first experiment w/ colonization, COIN and foreign administration after all.
I would also like to know the
I would also like to know the reason for dissing Once An Eagle. It had a huge effect when it came out, and I think its protrayal of Massingale as the ultimate West Pointer was spot on. 70s USMA grad.
For me Starship trooper
For me Starship trooper distinguish itself of other SF books on one thing, tangiblepolitical system : aka citizenship.
You are not a citizen and you don't have a right to vote, until you have done the military service.
No more votes from marketing and lobbying, but from clear minded citizens.
Sadly, this doesn't apply to current military, my group is better and my sacrifice is holly, doesn't really mean clear minded.
I have a high regard for
I have a high regard for Starship Troopers (the novel) as it represents Heinlein's vision of a just and well-organized society, built around military service. A marginal notion these days, but certainly original when it was written. Starship Troopers (the movie) was clearly a satire on fascism, not a bad one, & it's pointless to link the novel to the movie in any way.
Once an Eagle is a fine novel, but someone mentioned The Lionheads, which I think is a far better one for exploring the 20th century professional officer culture. At the troop level an outstanding novel is Tiger the LURP Dog, which captures some long-overlooked truths about the Vietnam-era military.
Dr. Seuss' "Oh, the Places
Dr. Seuss' "Oh, the Places You'll Go!" should be added to the Marine reading list. I was given this after my Jr. High graduation and it's helped me figure things out overseas, especially Civ-Mil Ops in A-Stan.
Yeah, and I've been in the
Yeah, and I've been in the Lurch plenty of times.
Once an Eagle was a book of
Once an Eagle was a book of its era - when "sweeping epics" (actually melodramas) were presented in six-inch thick volumes that were later adapted to TV "miniseries." See the compete works James Clavell or most of James Michener for other examples. (FWIW, Eagle was made into a miniseries, too - now on Blu Ray/DVD at bargain prices. Haven't seen it, but it stars the incomparable Sam Elliott.)
Not much demand for books of that length these days (unless they're broken down into series, as so many Sci Fi works are). I believe the more recently available editions of the book are actually edited down versions of the original. Can't say if that makes it better or worse.
think he was talking about a
think he was talking about a Soldiers Load and Mobility of a Nation, and not the O'Brien book.
Ah, got my book titles mixed
Ah, got my book titles mixed up. Yes it was "Soldier's Load." My apologies. It's been a while since I actually wanted to go through that reading list.
I don't know how I missed
I don't know how I missed Once an Eagle, but I sense it may be the missing link I've been looking for... I was wondering how people volunteer for the military thinking their about some kind of Civil Rights Crusade (if you aren't 70 years old, you missed it), are there to hold up our ideals - on a battlefield- right....
Is that where all these strange ideas come from? Don't be shy, I was a kid once too..
Concerning Andrew's
Concerning Andrew's skepticism regarding the merits of the film version of Starship Troopers, here are two convincing takes on the movie's success as intentional satire:
http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/11/26/starship-troopers-fascism/
http://www.avclub.com/articles/starship-troopers,41966/
One quibble - people are
One quibble - people are saying that in the book military service is required. If I remember correctly "federal service" included Peace Corps/NIH/CCC type jobs like scientific research, doctoring in uncomfortable locations, and physical labor on off-world agricultural/colonization projects.
Hey, subtle must be your
Hey, subtle must be your mdilde name. Great post!
Never seen a beettr post!
Never seen a beettr post! ICOCBW
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