Center for a New American Security

Actually, the Administration

Actually, the Administration has handed an out to John Boehner, who, absent this attempt to avoid the issue, would have to actually figure out if he wanted to lead an attempt to ratify the war, or else render it illegal. He desperately wants to do neither, I assure you. What we've witnessed this week is a couple of powerful guys doing each other a solid, or, alternatively, agree not to disagree on an issue neither wants to disagree upon.

Oh, stop being a Baghdad Bob.

Oh, stop being a Baghdad Bob. There is no war. There isn't even resistance. Just Qadaffi's weapons-related program atrocities. And a no-fly zone with occasional daily drops on Qaddafi compounds. We are driving them, whomever they are, back, even without any ground forces with ammunition. Any day, they will surrender. They carry their coffins on their backs.

My commentary

My commentary http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/17/obama-lib...

AM, I can hear you. In my

AM, I can hear you. In my country, which is an ISAF contributor of considerable fame (for caveats), the electorate has for years been told that there is no war, but rather some sort of armed rebuilding. An especially bold move, as I like to think.
Lately, my government chose to abstain from the Libya thingy. But after having been told a few things by their NATO partners, they now publicly agreed to send in some "stabilization forces" when the bombing is over ... :(

I guess we need an Armed

I guess we need an Armed Social Work Powers Act or a Responsibility To Bomb Powers Act for those cases where it's "not really war, ya see, because we're protecting the civilians or something."

Mencius Moldbug on June 18,

Mencius Moldbug on June 18, 2011 - 12:04pm Looks like you know your American history back to WW2 based on your up string comments. Reference to Reagan is kind.

When the sunrises, I think the Bean Counters are going to rule.

USA has lost tax revenue to globalization. Corporate taxes, lost wages, lost SS and Medicare payments, trade imbalances, and the wars. Still it is going to take a chuck of change to clear the US debts. Between 1985 and now communication has enabled the way America does business. Corporations can get around tax law like they never have done before. US Government law is living in the 80's (how America funds government really has not changed). Obama's foreign policy is in the 90's (Clinton year's REDUX, we just got to redoing Rwanda). FDR's Social Security and LBJ's Medicare/Aid is became obsolete due to globalization cause they are benefits base on domestic US job growth.

Either America grows its way out of debt or it tightens its belt. There will be belt tightening. It always happens after a war. It is not so much that the Baby Boomers are going to retire. Yes there are a lot of Boomers, but they had children who are paying taxes in the work force. A group of Boomers control a lot of wealth held up in retirement accounts which is leveraged by Wall Street and profits taxed. The spreadsheet got balanced. Problems is the cost of health care and retirement has never been higher, and no one is addressing the true cost of health care and only giving lip service to the abuses in the system. Politicians only treat the symptoms. Can Doctors justify their salaries? Medical Suppliers justify their charges? Why are there so many commercials pushing Hover Rounds, Stair Elevators, Adult Diapers, and Diabetes supplies conveniently delivered to your doorstep (All you have to do is show Medicare Eligibility and the services is free! Government can not find illegal workers, but they show up on the News lined up to be picked up for work !). Those questions are asked, rarely answered. We can ask the same type of questions to the military and for education. There there is the devil in the detail that no Politician speaketh, the Federal Pension system. We already know that a lot of State Pension systems are poorly funded, the Politicians that arranged the disaster will be "on the dole too" with no ownership of responsibility. There are few truly enforceable laws to take away pensions for lack of performance.

Will there be growth from Europe? With Greece, Ireland, Portugal, and Spain dragging them down I do not see it. China right now is promising, but the workers want more. Companies world wide are starting to figure that the problems to do business in China are greater than the wealth to be had. The game change in China will be if they can produce Intellectual Property and make something that people want to purchase. India is seeing the same dynamics, but does not have as tight of control over its people as China. Religion is going to be a player in India's growth, a destabilizing factor (only have to go as far as Pakistan to figure it out). South America looks pretty good. Brazil has done well. Columbia is improving. Still have some political agendas that get in the way. Everything in between is a mess, including Mexico. GDP growth can happen. American manufacture gives the biggest boost to a tax system living in the 80's cause you build Corporate taxes, wages, SS and Medicare payments while reducing trade imbalance. Politicians do not have to do their jobs, they just get votes. America can not just manufacture high end product, it has to make low end too otherwise America is dependent (what to do with 12 million illegals? You do not need a Columbia free trade agreement, Columbia is already in the US). Between higher transportation costs to ship product and higher demanded wages/benefits in foreign countries, the stabilized cheap labor markets will dry up.

Growth will happen in spite of US Government's failings. Not at the rate to keep politicians in office unless they start doing their jobs. There is no room for pork anymore yet is is not going away.

Bean Counters in control is not a happy place. The US will need those manufacturing jobs or the GI's coming back from the war will be sitting on their thumbs. The alternative is that the security system that American has build since 9/11 will double again while the spending is justified with a broader search for terrorists (and a looser definition of "terrorist").

It is a real gut buster to hear that the US is paying a million dollars (really more cause it is continuing grants) to the Europeans to gather up MANPADs in Libya. Cows out of the barn and the State Department is trying to call them back. For the number of SAMs made and sold, it is really a circle jerk to try a SAM repurchase (these programs are just a joke). All you are doing is making the market.

Libya is just part of the slippery slope to put Foreign Politics in front of American Taxpayers. Americans are so deep in debit, we no longer own our country. We have foreign bond holders telling us how to do our business. That is sad.

Well, when Reagan invaded

Well, when Reagan invaded Grenda it wasn't a war either .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
What's good for the goose

Let's set aside that the invasion of Grenada lasted a few days. As well as the fact it didn't follow high-profile election year preening by Reagan about the importance of reining in the Imperial Presidency.

Your point is what? Both Presidents broke the law? And that has what to do with this one's illegal actions?

It is probably too late Abu

It is probably too late Abu Muqawama to protest, you and many of your correspondents have
tacitly given your consent over the last decade to all sorts of things that previous generations knew were
wrong. We now have imperial wars, assassination of US citizens, murder, torture, TSA gropers, militarized
law enforcement [USDA SWAT teams???]. You are enough of a student of history to know how likely
these things are to go away without tearing everything down and starting over. Cordially.

Stingray.....The level of war

Stingray.....The level of war security will diminish. It always does. Elements of it will continue. It will take years for it to happen, if the budget cuts do not help it along.

Positroll....Yup there was Grenda. Don't forget the bomb that Reagan dropped on Gadhafi's head. If you want look up the definition of limited actions, these would be good examples. Panama would fit in there too. If I remember right, there were a few Seals that drown on their way to Grenda, which had a lot about being stupid. In Panama, the SF teams went a little deaf banging away with their 5.56's, that got the ball rolling on hearing protection. Good things do happen.

Think Libya is past the scope of Grenda , Panama, or any other counter terrorist operation of the past. The bombs that Reagan dropped on Gadhafi hit their mark and you can count them on most peoples fingers. Clinton liked Cruse Missiles, those you could count these on most people's fingers too.

Libya is starting to smell like Kosovo. That was the late 90's, ten years later we still have not gotten rid of it. That was a left over from ww1. An argument that never got finished.

Obama has called Libya a short engagement, it now has lasted over 90 days.

Obama has called Libya a limited engagement, cost is getting up to a Billion dollars. I have a funny feeling we are not see the Black Budget. I do believe that Obama signed a "Mother may I".

Obama is not calling Libya a war, but we are talking about a Marshal Type plan to rebuild the damage NATO has done.

I wonder if the civilians that got kill this weekend would consider Libya a war? Did NATO protect them? The US is on the hook with NATO to pay out the death benefits to survivors, like the US has done repeatedly in IRAQ and IRAN. That gets old when the US government tells its Seniors to pound sand on Medicare and Social Security.

Did Reagan rebuild Gadhafi's palace in 86? Nope.

I believe that it is a good time to look around and see the changes in the world and put them in perspective. China is seeing double digit growth. India is doing well. Brazil has had consistent growth. Europe, at least the Germans and France have economies. The US has done a lot directly or indirectly by US corporate investments for developing countries. America is at a time when that support of foreign investment has come at a cost, that cost is the US debt.

America can not and should not continue to be the world's sugar daddy.

Every thing has a limit.

Yeah, and I'm an

Yeah, and I'm an unperson.

The WPA allows for 60 days of combat under certain conditions.

Libya didn't fit those conditions.

The operation was illegal even before the White House blew off the 60 day consultation.

How would you describe U.S.

How would you describe U.S. actions in the Atlantic in 1940-41? American forces occupied Iceland in 1941, American ships escorted convoys across the western half of the Atlantic. The position of any U-boats seen by U.S. ships or planes were broadcast to British forces. In September 1941 Roosevelt ordered U.S. Navy vessels to attack any German U-boats in waters "vital to American defense".

Al Qaeda brought down the WTC

Al Qaeda brought down the WTC and we considered it an act of war. Why then is not an act of war when the US government lobs 120 tomahawk missiles at Libya?

As with torture, it depends who does it. When we torture, it isn't torture, because everything America does is for a noble purpose. As long as your intent is to save lives, you can torture, bomb, and crush the testicles of children. In fact, you have a moral obligation to do so. Those 120 tomahawk missiles are not hostile bombs but spears of liberation. If you object to the bombing, it only means you love Saddam and want to marry him. And you are probably a naive communist and pedophile as well.

"Hey, hey, O-B-J, how many

"Hey, hey, O-B-J, how many kids (and jobs) did you kill today?"

You know we can piss and moan

You know we can piss and moan about Korea, Vietnam, 1940-41, Grenada, and WPA until we get blue in the face. It is just grabbing at straws to defend a political party when we should really be defending America.

The spirit of 1973 War Powers was about getting the strategy right for America, not which government branch had control of the decision. WP happened cause Vietnam was the right cause with a bad plan. Good citizens would realize the spirit of the law. The self righteous argue about the words.

Is Libya right for America, now? Lets not forget Yemen, Afghanistan and all that is going on in Africa.

Part of the problem is what these wars are turning into. Afghanistan was originally about AQ. There were some serious problems with the assumptions made with Iraq. The same assumptions were made later in Afghanistan and Libya. Getting a new assumption after the war starts only proves lack of understanding.

Once we get involved for the right cause, the plan keeps changing to support the next cause. It does not stop.

First Libya was about avoiding a massacre (that was the idea sold to the American Public, the right cause.).
Circling around that cause was the unofficial removal of Gadhafi.
Then after the NFZ was established, Gadhafi became the official target.
Some where between time zero and now, NATO started plans on rebuilding Liyba with Western money.
While all that was going on, the Financial Aid packages started to develop.
Where is it going to end? Why is the West on the hook to fix Libya when they have their own resources?

The Libyans started the war and now the West has to pick up the tab for rebuilding? That makes no sense, yet we are all merrily walking that path.

You can go through the same metamorphosis in Iraq and Afghanistan. I can hardly believe that if what Americans knew the ending, the beginning would not have happened.

Wars are costly. Americans only look at the beginning to start a war, it is hard to sell the end. We make the assumption that we will win. Part of the problem is, it is hard to tell when we are winning these conflicts. Should a war be fought, if you can not tell if your winning? Does America fight to lose?

Bottom line is, there is a fundamental problem in how America gets involved for the right cause with the wrong plan. It is the plan and strategy that gives the right cause a good reason. Any good reason needs to support America's future. If America does not come out better than it was before " " (put in your own definition of dropping bombs) started, then we really do not have the right cause, do we. Think about it, America does not fight to destroy itself yet that is what we are doing. Our economy is tanked, with our debt so high it is hard to buy our way out of it. AQ won that war, it was their strategy.

Are our leaders, the people who represent the American people, really doing their jobs for the right reasons? They are there to represent the American people, not to sell ideas. If I knew up front the war was going to waste a trillion dollars, I would have just rebuilt the trade towers.

Is it that our causes are too ill defined to get the planning right? Do our politicians have to generalize too much to sell Americans war? What they are really selling us is victory cause that is what we want to hear. We are not losers, yet that is the path we walk after that sale.

Seems that we can not stop ourselves once the ball gets rolling. That is another problem. Once we start to destroy ourselves and economy, we can not get it stopped. That is the problem about being "big", you have momentum. I think that our enemy knows that. Why is it we can not get that right? If we do not have it right, then why are we doing it? Why do we keep trying the same thing over and over. Is it because we have so much money?

Who owns the responsibility to figure out why we are getting the plan wrong all the time? It is the American people. Once the American people hire someone, who has the responsibility over the employees if they screw it up? Gates did not want the war in Libya, yet we are in it.

A manager can ruin a good thing in two or four years time if all they do is throw money at a problem, not to mention killing confidence cause everyone knows what is happening.

This conversation makes no

This conversation makes no sense. Basically, folks, the U.S. Supreme Court has refused to allow legal challenges in U.S. courts related to the foreign policy decisions of the Executive Branch. You can't sue the CIA in the U.S. for actions conducted in Pakistan, etc. This blanket exception means that only the Legislative Branch can challenge executive foreign policy decisions, particularly since it involves NATO.

This kind of legal exception also extends to foreign sovereign bodies:

In 2008, the FSIA was invoked by Saudi Arabia to preclude a lawsuit filed by families and victims of the September 11 attacks who alleged that the Saudi leaders had indirectly financed al-Qaeda.

All this only goes to show that the U.S. Supreme Court has abdicated its responsibility to uphold the rule of law in favor of partisan politics and corporate pandering, by the way. So, forget your legal arguments, you have no place to present them.

But, clearly, the legislative branch has no interest in weighing in on this issue, for several reasons:

1) On the Democratic side, the political strategists know all about the popularity boost a president gets when he engages in successful military actions (see Obama's boost after the OBL takedown).

2) On the Republican side, they don't want to have to deal with a public review of the Bush-Cheney-Rice lovefest with Qaddafi from 2003-2008, nor any kind of examination of U.S. corporate ties with the Qaddafi regime.

The smart thing to do would have been to formally recognize the Libyan opposition as the legitimate Libyan government, which is what France did. Why didn't they? Saudi pressure and Israeli pressure, I'm guessing - they prefer the old status quo. However, this means that other actors are in position to be the new best friends of Libya, with all that implies with respect to future energy deals:

France, Italy and Qatar are among a small number of countries that have recognized the Transitional National Council as the legitimate government of Libya.

While the United States has yet to officially recognize the rebel government, President Barack Obama "has invited them to open an office in Washington," a senior administration official told reporters traveling with Clinton to the meeting in Abu Dhabi.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/06/09/libya.war/

AM is once again off-base.

AM is once again off-base. It is nice, however, to see some, like gunboat diplomat and a few visitors, who are able to recognize that the conversation the President is having with Congress about Libya has very little in fact to do with Libya and much more to do with the fact that every president since Nixon vetoed the WPA in 1973 has viewed the WPA as unconstitutional and has felt very little need to ask Congress for permission to use US forces abroad and that the Supreme Court has thus far decided not to review such cases because 1) they are political in nature and 2) they aren't ripe for consideration. Only in one instance (Gerald Ford, 1975, Mayaguez incident) has a president come close to paying attention to the WPA. Obama is just following the bipartisan precedents since 1975: Reagan (El Salvador Military Advisors, 1981, Lebanon, 1983) George H.W Bush (1991 Persian Gulf War), and Clinton (Somalia 1992, Bosnia 1995, Kosovo 1999).

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