Abu Muqawama: Post
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Summer Reading
I am off for a week's vacation on the family farm in East Tennessee and will be away from the blog during that time, so I wanted to highlight a few reading suggestions while I am away.
1. I took a little good-natured teasing for suggesting over Twitter that I can often find policy-relevant research in the American Political Science Review and the International Journal of Middle East Studies, but this month's IJMES really does have a great roundtable discussion that will be of interest to those studying the Middle East from a policy perspective and, specifically, what is taking place in the "Arab Spring."
In Foreign Affairs a few months back, Greg Gause wrote:
Scholars did not predict or appreciate the variable ways in which Arab armies would react to the massive, peaceful protests this year. This oversight occurred because, as a group, Middle East experts had largely lost interest in studying the role of the military in Arab politics.
A number of scholars do, though, take the study of Arab militaries quite seriously. And this month's IJMES features a roundtable discussion on "Rethinking the Study of Middle East Militaries" with short essays by Yezid Sayigh, Roger Owen, Robert Springborg, Oren Barak and others. I highly recommend policy-interested scholars of the region check it out.
[Warning: what follows has nothing to do with the topics normally considered on this blog. Proceed at your own risk.]
2. I am getting a little tired of political journalists and their thumb-nail deep understanding of trends within and strands of evangelical and fundamentalist Christian thought in America. Even as good an article as Ryan Lizza's profile of Michelle Bachmann -- which I enjoyed -- left something to be desired in its treatment of Francis Schaeffer and evangelical theology. Most treatments of the religious beliefs of Bachmann and also Rick Perry that I have been reading over the past few weeks are clumsy at the least and intolerant and ignorant at the worst. Watching Bachmann on Meet the Press on Sunday, for example, I was shaking my head in disbelief as the candidate advanced her "understanding" of "economics," but once David Gregory started grilling her on her theological beliefs, I started considering the whole exchange unfair, uninformed and inappropriate.*
If political journalists are going to start writing about the theological beliefs of people like Bachmann and Perry, they should first take the time to study evangelicalism and fundamentalisms within American Christianity in a serious way. One great, pithy (just 224 pages!) introduction to the subject, even if it is a bit dated, is George Marsden's Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism. Another great book, which is really a criticism of evangelical anti-intellectualism and should be read by believers and non-believers alike, is Mark Noll's The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. Reading these books -- or, at the very least, the first book -- will better equip Americans of all trades and political stripes to speak intelligently about the evangelical and, in cases, fundamentalist beliefs of some candidates for the presidency.
I suspect that as many of these politicians have been as influenced by John Stott and Martyn Lloyd-Jones as by R. J. Rushdoony and J. Gresham Machen, and it's important for political reporters to know the differences and similarities between them all if they are going to start throwing out names and ideas as being relevant to the election.
*Look, I realize that it's the politicians who have opened to door to a discussion of their faiths by making such a big deal out of them in front of prospective voters. But last Sunday, it seemed as if David Gregory was telling Michelle Bachmann she was theologically wrong, and it just struck me as terribly unfair. For one brief moment, such did Gregory's line of questioning bother me, I found myself actually rooting for Bachmann.
We seem to have one slip-up
We seem to have one slip-up of "evangelism" for "evangelicalism." Otherwise, thanks so much for the strong recommendations. As someone who used to work for evangelicals and thus study them up-close in their natural habitat, your remarks for "outsiders" seem pretty spot-on to me!
Less conservative political
Less conservative political cheerleading, more policy analysis.
(I kid.)
Thanks, Ivan!
Thanks, Ivan!
It's hard to describe how
It's hard to describe how happy I am when Christians "show their work" and link me to good primary and secondary sources about their faith. Those sources are sometimes strangely hard to find for an 'outsider.' So thanks from me too.
Good post. This academic
Good post. This academic finds that far too often his left-leaning historian colleagues believe that "evangelicalism" = "extreme Republicans", without bothering to understand either and do justice to either group or the underlying intellectual and theological traditions that motivate them. Heaven forbid there might actually be evangelical Democrats out there.
Perhaps equally important here is the gradual realization that David Gregory is not up to snuff. You've pointed out his inability to engage MIchelle Bachmann's religious convictions. Wretchard (of the Belmont Club) noted that on 26 June Gregory couldn't be bothered to pick up on Senator James Webb's very serious concerns about China in East Asia and the future of U.S. military power--being more interested instead in political gossip. How many people still watch the Sunday talk shows anyway? Do they really matter?
The journalists are in for a
The journalists are in for a tough time as far as I can tell.
Let me start by saying that my tutor at Oxford was AE Harvey, very much in the mold of John Stott and All Souls, Langham Place, although my mentor was Trevor Huddleston, more in line with All Saints, Margaret Street, and that I have a deep respect and love for both men and some appreciation for their respective traditions. Nevertheless, I find it extremely difficult to keep up with the streams and influences within contemporary American politicized Christianity.
Let's consider the books you recommend. Noll's Scandal of the Evangelical Mind appears to have been published in 1995, Marsden's Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism in 1991, and neither of them – nor even the second edition of Marsden's Fundamentalism and American Culture from 2006 – mentions C Peter Wagner.
And yet it's not Rushdoony but Wagner's New Apostolic reformation (which isn't Rushdoony or Stott, but may have some Rushdoony influence) that requires (IMO) the most understanding as we move into the Presidential campaign season.
If I might say so, Damian Thompson's exploration of a large Pentecostal church in Kensington (London), may give people a few significant pointers -- one of which is his treatment of the capacity of believers to hold a "soon coming" end times theological position while going about life as though saving for an unborn grandchild's college education makes all the sense in the world -- another, the vivid contrast between the fairly definite set of beliefs propounded from the pulpit on the one hand, and on the other the wide array of ideas, ranging as far afield as UFOs and 666 bar codes, represented in the offerings in the church bookstore, and in the individual belief systems of members of the congregation.
The book is Waiting for Antichrist: Charisma and Apocalypse in a Pentecostal Church, and I can't recommend it too highly:
http://www.amazon.com/Waiting-Antichrist-Charisma-Apocalypse-Pentecostal...
Charles Cameron (hipbone), I
Charles Cameron (hipbone),
I think your comment goes to prove Abu Muqawama's point. Equating Evangelicalism with Pentecostals is like equating the Democrat's with Socialists. Sure, there might be some in democratic party who might be truly described as socialists. But you are never going to understand the democratic party by studying socialists.
Ditto with Evangelicals and Pentecostals. Thus who latch on to a book about Pentecostals as a means for understanding Evangelicals as a community are going to have a twisted and distorted view that has little bearing on reality.
Exum, keep on rooting! There
Exum, keep on rooting! There is hope. You blue dog.
Meet the Press likes to stir things up a little. Just like any religion, people's beliefs come in different shapes and sizes. How people view women's rights is the same way. Gregory only was focusing on half the husband-wife relationship. It is about mutual respect, you have to give back what is taken.
With divorce rates has high as they are in America, I do not think that others have the same belief. If we all respected each other, the ME would not be the place it is. Then that sums up the world today, lack of respect where religion clashes the most. That is a lot of hurtful pride.
Like every other election the role that religion plays is to bond the base. It by itself will not put a person in office in today's world. Sure does get a lot of folks pulling the right direction.
I was in Waterloo a few weeks before Bachmann showed up, you could feel the pull across generations.
Correct side of history? Beats the alternative.
Enjoy your vacation.
Enjoy your vacation.
What exactly does religion
What exactly does religion have to do with any of this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set
The Church above had a priest who was a highly decorated U.S. Army Officer. Same was never convicted of any crimes, but many pointed finders saying he was involved in wrong doing. If he ran for President, would I vote for him? Probably not, but that doesn't mean he's not qualified for the position!
Are we going to start burning witches again soon? ...Who will be next after that?
Visitor: I don't equate
Visitor:
I don't equate Evangelicals with Pentecostals or Fundamentalists. And I didn't recommend Damian's book, which is about one specific English Pentecostal ministry and congregation, as a key to understanding all Pentecostals, let along all Pentecostals, Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. I suggested that it would clarify the way in which official doctrine might differ from (and be more homogenous than) congregational beliefs (which might by contrast be quite divergent from one individual to the next) -- and also, how apocalyptic expectation might be a church's official eschatology without its members necessarily being filled with what Richard Landes nicely terms "semantic arousal".
Both points make it harder for journalists to say, "you go to such and such a church, therefore you must subscribe to this or that strong position".
Within Pentecostal churches, journalists might want to distinguish between the position taken by the Assemblies of God:
and those who preach Kingdom Now or Dominion theology, Manifest Sons of God or Joel’s Army -- or kindred doctrines.
It is here that the New Apostolic Reformation, with its Apostles greater than Peter and Prophets greater than Isaiah, differs from the official doctrine of the Assemblies, see also #2 of the same document, concerning the "problematic teaching that present-day offices of apostles and prophets should govern church ministry".
The Assemblies themselves "call for careful discernment" in the areas they then discuss. In the meantime, careful and informed scholarship is required. I am suggesting thatb this is not by any means ab easy task.
What was unfair about
What was unfair about Gregory's questioning of Bachmann?
Honestly, if you're going to make your religious faith part of your political platform, being able to explain your beliefs is pretty much on you, not on some reporter who is interviewing you. It's another case if you keep your theological views well separated from the reasons you are asking people to vote for you, and some politicians do. But Bachmann doesn't. Neither does Perry.
Of course it would be desirable if candidates like that -- or, say, Romney or (in 2000) Joe Lieberman -- got questioned in a sophisticated way that reflected the complexity of certain religious traditions. American evangelical tradition, though, is pretty goshdiddlyarn complex, even if we're restricting the discussion primarily to white evangelical tradition. It's asking a lot of any reporter on a Sunday talk show to go that far outside the lines of what he or she normally covers when interviewing political candidates.
Now, David Gregory was pretty clearly reflecting the entertainment industry in which he works with his questions about gays, gay adoptions, and so forth, but that doesn't really represent a failure of theological understanding on his part. It also says something about Bachmann that she responded to these (and many other) questions by repeating talking points in identical form over and over, like an overdressed mynah bird. Evidently she's not that theologically sophisticated either, at least when she's not speaking directly to people who already agree with her.
Finally, a word about tolerance. It's not at stake here. Acceptance, celebration, willingness to accept the anodyne talking points some politicians use when talking to people who are not their strongest supporters and turn a deaf ear to the language they use with people who share their views: all those could be said to be at stake. But tolerance? No. It's deeply dispiriting to me to see how many Americans, living in what must be among the most benign environments with respect to differing religious and philosophical beliefs and lifestyle choices in the history of the world, are so easily able to see themselves as victims of persecution. If the apostles has reacted to opposition and misunderstanding in that way, the whole religion would have died out long before Rome fell.
This is
This is disturbing:
“…Bachmann enrolled at the new O. W. Coburn School of Law, at Oral Roberts University, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The Bible, not the Constitution or conventional jurisprudence, guides the curriculum… “to restore law to its historic roots in the Bible.”
As is this:
“The law review published essays by Schaeffer and Rousas John Rushdoony, a prominent Dominionist who has called for a pure Christian theocracy in which Old Testament law—execution for adulterers and homosexuals, for example—would be instituted.”
Are we not currently engaged in a conflict with a group of fundamentalists who want to base the laws in Afghanistan on a strict interpretation of the Qu’ran? Or do we believe that the Christian imposition of “Old Testament law” will prove to be so much more benevolent than the Muslim’s form of fundamentalist sharia?
Sorry Ex, but I am very wary of the national political aspirations of anyone who is a strict theological fundamentalist. No good comes of it when they achieve power, anywhere.
Zathras? How much does
Zathras?
How much does Gregory get paid? How many people prepare the show "Meet the Press".
It's asking a lot of any reporter on a Sunday talk show to go that far outside the lines of what he or she normally covers when interviewing political candidates.
Think I expect well paid people earn their salary.
Why?
Gregory asked one of those double barreled questions that people in the media like to lean forward when they ask it. Greqory wanted something spicy and got the correct response, "It is about respect".
It is a two way street. Gregory, left out half the question.
Wives and Husbands
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. [1] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
Like any Politician does not keep on message. Clinton ran his campaign on it.
Your words have no legs.
Charles Cameron
Charles Cameron (hipbone),
Fair enough. I have seen journalists make such a jump all the time, but I should not have assumed that was your point. Especially since the focus of your first comment did focus more on the disconnect between "official church teaching" and individual members actual beliefs.
Before Labor Day, Tripoli and
Before Labor Day, Tripoli and the Colonel will fall. Be sure you keep your eyes peeled for news while down on the farm AM. Enjoy the down time! Cheers.
"But last Sunday, it seemed
"But last Sunday, it seemed as if David Gregory was telling Michelle Bachmann she was theologically wrong, and it just struck me as terribly unfair. For one brief moment, such did Gregory's line of questioning bother me, I found myself actually rooting for Bachmann."
Maybe that's the audience response that Gregory was aiming for.
I read the Lizza article as well. Bachmann, Perry (especially Perry) are not much different from the Taliban in some respects.
"Honestly, if you're going to
"Honestly, if you're going to make your religious faith part of your political platform, being able to explain your beliefs is pretty much on you, not on some reporter who is interviewing you."
So, if the subject is foreign policy, the reporter should not have any knowledge of foreign policy in order to know what questions to ask? And the best and most effective use of the network's interview time would be to have the candidate explain foreign policy to an utterly ignorant reporter?
Rich S. on August 18, 2011 -
Rich S. on August 18, 2011 - 1:47am
Bachmann, Perry (especially Perry) are not much different from the Taliban in some respects.
There is truth in what you say. Not sure a lot of people would accept that. That is where the conflict starts.
Good friend of mine grew up in Laos. Think about his whole family is on the hit list if they ever go back. His brother was a big company man. One day he mention that one of the people in his work group told him he was damned to hell. I just looked at him and said, "What?". Then he told be the source of the damnation. There was an attempt to convert him from Buddist to Christian.
I just laughed. The advice. "Don't worry about it, we all want the same thing".
Happiness and salvation is pretty much universal, how we all get there is different. Some people are willing to fight for what they believe, for some it is a way of life. Think the hard core part of the Taliban is the largest difference. If that ever changes, it will take generations. Not sure they want to change. Why should they, its their county!
I most likely stepped on a lot of peoples toes. Would not be the first time.
Live long and prosper.
CRAZY MAN - Bashar al-Assad
CRAZY MAN - Bashar al-Assad was asked to step down by our President today!
I give it 48 hours before we start covert-operations for removal of Bashar al-Assad from power.
This entire Middle East thing keeps getting bigger and bigger..... who will be next?
Bashar al-Assad is, as if not more, insane than his father. Good riddance to Bashar al-Assad and here's to hoping that the transition of power to the Syrian People will be smoother than in Tripoli, Algeria and Egypt.
¡Viva la revolución del jazmín
The Pres has been a busy one
The Pres has been a busy one today.
Its a good laugh.
http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0811/call_uncle_sam_5c130fdd-0e3...
Only time he shows up in corn country is when he wants something.
Guess he had time between helping farmers to KICK some Ass-ad, impressive.
With the President's approval
With the President's approval ratings tanking right now, the Governors of Texas and New Jersey are looking better these days. I also heard a rumor today on the Hill, that the Democratic Party has several individuals who are looking to ask New York Governor Andrew Cuomo to run for President, against Obama for the 2012 Democratic Ticket.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20093959-503544.html
Obama might be forced out from both sides. With the dollar devaluation, big business hurting and the unemployment..... his days are most likely numbered.
"CRAZY MAN - Bashar al-Assad
"CRAZY MAN - Bashar al-Assad was asked to step down by our President today!"
Bwahahaha, I'm sure the guy who is having his people crushed under tanks is reaaaaally scared of President Pantywaist.
"Bashar al-Assad is, as if not more, insane than his father."
Yeah, the rational thing to do is step down without a fight... and end up in the defendant's cage like Mubarak. Oops, maybe fighting isn't such an irrational idea after all.
Personally, I admire Bashar's "fuck you" spirit. Stick it to the man, Bashar!
If we are going to start
If we are going to start writing about the theological beliefs of assorted present day politicians it is perhaps a good idea to put it all in some longer term historical perspective. Let me recommend Kevin Phillips' (The Cousins' Wars). This will place much of the origins of the present conflicts properly back in England (East Coast Essex etc) and also Scotland and Ireland (Ulster etc).
Protestant theology was well developed by the time it reached America in the 17th century and its assorted streams that developed in America had different European origins usually of Scotch Irish, Eastern England Cromwell country folk. ( in New England) and the assorted Germans of differing Lutheran persuasions.
The book is non ideological but persuasive. The present day folk of the evangelical persuasion descended mostly from the Scotch Irish. The scotch Irish tended to settle across the mountains both South of and West of the more developed parts of the colonial society.
Kevin Phillips is always good on geography and political beliefs and here he uses religion and original geography as an explanation.
awr2 on August 19, 2011 -
awr2 on August 19, 2011 - 3:06am
We can all read until we are blue in the face.
My take is this. Gregory was probing Bachmann about Woman's rights issues. It was about the opposition's beliefs not Bachmann's. Gregory wanted something to hang his hat on for the next day's press headline, " Bachmann summits to husband! Is this Presidential material?". It was a leading question. Gregory knew what the bible said cause it was wrapped up in his question. Like anything in print, it is up to interpretation for the person reading.
Religion bonds the base. We still have separation of church and state.
Other than making a bunch of new's people salaries, 2012 will have nothing to do with Religion.
Its about the economy.
Where is Waldo anyway? Kicking Ass-ad must be tiring.
[ as in I don't know. Don't
[ as in I don't know. Don't particularly care either..]
Exum way to stand up for real History and reality. The Left has a view of Christianity about as broad and tolerant as the Taliban's view of the Jews. About as informed as well.
Enjoy vacation. *don't* watch the News.
Speaking of don't watch the
Speaking of don't watch the News, Libyan endgame = bloodbath for losers
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/middleeast/2011/08/16/and-now-for...
awr2 -- I'd just like to
awr2 --
I'd just like to thank you for the suggestion of The Cousins' Wars. We are going to see a lot more nuance-free discussion of highly nuanced theological issues over the next months, and a decent reading list would be useful about now.
Abu M: I'm told by a friend
Abu M:
I'm told by a friend that there's a new book by Mark Noll that just came out in late July, Jesus Christ and the Life of the Mind [Eerdmans]. One reviewer notes, "Noll in this book offers a mature, nuanced, and wide-ranging reprise of his Scandal of the Evangelical Mind — but that is not all. By drawing constructively on poets, theologians, philosophers — and especially on the great historic creeds and confessions of the faith — he has crafted a challenging, inspiring christological philosophy of Christian education for the twenty-first century. This is a major contribution."
Charles Cameron (hipbone) on
Charles Cameron (hipbone) on August 20, 2011 - 12:05am
My money is on the economy as the discussion over the next few months. Dang gold prices are headed to $2000/oz and the Fed has shot up all its silver bullets. Deficit is not getting any better. Guess America can pawn the gold in Fort Knox, but I think we already did that. Europe is starting to stink a little with its fermented bailouts. This one is not about GWB anymore.
Then again if you want to keep on praying, hoping and talking the economy into getting better more power to you.
BTW, How many laws does Obama have to ignore before he can be impeached for not doing his duties to his oath? Ever notice that this administration can do no wrong. That is a sure sign of leading from behind.
Here's a thorny question for
Here's a thorny question for your discussion group:
Evangelical Christianity vs. Evangelical Islam: What are the similarities and differences between crusaders and jihadis?
The most striking similarity is the obsession with cash donations for their respective causes, isn't it? Any organized, institutionalized religion can be twisted to this aim, of course.
For further reading:
1) "Oil, God, and Gold: The Story of Aramco and the Saudi Kings" by Anthony Cave Brown (1999)
2) "House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties" by Craig Unger (2004)
3) "The Profits of Religion: An Essay in Economic Interpretation" by Upton Sinclair (1917)
Note this last one is not a 'secular' screed - "Sinclair wants to rescue the true message of Jesus, the friend of the poor and brother of all men."
gunboat diplomat on August
gunboat diplomat on August 20, 2011 - 12:47pm
Think you are going to have to try harder than cash donations.
RNC and DNC are breaking records with their manic fund raising.
What does that make them? Think they got a different religion.
For Pete's sake, all I hear about is the need to raise taxes. That's a cash donation required by law for people that have an agenda.
More source
More source material.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/20/us-usa-obama-books-idUSTRE77J1...
Obama summer reading list leans toward fiction
Rumors are flying on the Dem
Rumors are flying on the Dem Party finding a new candidate for the ticket this weekend. Should prove interesting if it happens. Being ousted by one's own party would be provide a very different outcome for elections this fall.
Next 2 months are going to be one hell of a roller coaster ride. Hold on folks! But before that, the stock market will slide some more.
Visitor, I do not see a
Visitor,
I do not see a challenger to Obama, DNC is not going to show that much of a divide in their party. Obbie-one "is" the final solution. At least that is my judgement and I am sticking to it. Fearless has been showing some cracks of taking ownership of the economy. If he had done a full court press for job generation instead of ObamaCare, we would be there now (we spent two years on health care legislation while Obama told the American people the unemployment rate would drop, it didn't. More talk ). He put his party in front of America (like Dickie Durbin always does. Write him a letter opposing the party platform and see what you get back. Form letter telling you how great the platform is, he reminds you he does not care about your concerns). A new job plan NOW is too little too late it will just sound like campaigning. Besides it is the old plan RE-cooked transportation, schools, green energy, and raise taxes (no wonder Congress says NO all the time, it is the same thing just a different day). Problems can be highlighted with who funded the BUS trip to NO-where, the taxpayers (million dollar Fing bus, he does not have a horse to ride in on). Obama really thinks that bus ride was just presidential business so the taxpayer picks up the tab. That is lack of judgement, he believes his own BS. If it walks like duck and timing is everything. I would believe the bus trip was Presidential if it was not timed and had not gone through Iowa when the RNC was having a straw poll. He really thinks he can bluff the American people. Their eyes are wide open.
As for the RNC, they have a lot of work to do. There are a few candidates that can be marketed to independents. The DNC plan is to keep on shifting blame which is going to blow up in their face. "How" depends on what the economy does. Obama can not run against Congress, those are the words out of the DNC's own mouth. If the US economy gets worse cause of Europe, Americans will NOT stand still while the administration finger points or shrugs its shoulders and says "It wzan't little ole' me".
On a different subject......
Libya.
American people are going to finally find out by the 2012 election who the NFZ supported ! This administration is going to do hand flips to put money into Libya for reconstruction. Europe is broke, IMF is tapped, and the American people do not what more deficit spending. This could be Obama's "mission accomplished" moment. Lot of variables when you support tribal cultures. Libyans might unite to fight Gadhafi, but when the end comes they may have some scores to settle with themselves.
With oil at record highs and gasoline picking people's pockets. Food prices rising. I what to see Hillary justify her $160 Billion to oil producing countries to the American people without jobs. Four trillion in war spending, Libya reconstruction is going to go over like a lead balloon. Hopefully little money is going to come out of the US, any cash that comes out of Europe is going to take away from handling Spain, Ireland, Italy, France, and Greece.
My advice to the Libya. Stop fighting and Drill baby Drill.
.......I just hope that the US does not get blamed for helping (Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Egypt, Yemen, etc, etc)
BTW... Exum that is not being unkind to Obama, it is just reality.
Thanks, as always, for the
Thanks, as always, for the reading recommendations. ordering the Marsden book. This isn't the first book not directly related to policy i've ordered on ur recommendation, either (several ME Studies, Islamic studies, and assorted other titles have made their ways to my bookshelf as a result of either you, or the old comments of SoldierNoLongerInIraq)
Tripoli has fallen and the
Tripoli has fallen and the colonel's sons are on the run and wanted for war crimes??? Sounds like Iraq Part 2. No?
Happened quicker than first thought.
Great news.
such did Gregory's line of
such did Gregory's line of questioning bother me, I found myself actually rooting for Bachmann
Sucker.
Let me guess: she kept her cool, and looked reasonable. Not that the Newsweek cover made her look crazy or anything...
I heard off-camera she promised every voter a free handjob with every fill up of under $2-a-gallon gas.
Most people in here know very
Most people in here know very well that Barbara Starr is fed information by the Pentagon on a regular basis. This morning on CNN, Starr provided viewers information about what was in Tripoli's Ammo Supply Point's (ASPs), how many caches of "Mustard Gas" the Colonel had (4 separate) currently in Tripoli and elaborated on what other kinds of possible stockpiles of military weapons of "mass destruction" could be currently in the possession of the Libyan people, with "no one watching it".
Sounds like enough reason to put boots on the ground doesn't it?
I give it less than two weeks and American Troops will be on the ground and looking for these 4 caches of Mustard Gas and then while they are there, we will start an occupation, a new CPA will be formed. This will be the doorway in to the next quagmire.
For a woman as unattractive as Helen Thomas, I'm shocked she doesn't have her own fan club. Starr doesn't even have her own Wikipedia Webpage. For a person as important and who provides cutting edge valid information to the American public, you would think she would have her own Wikipedia page?
The stuff is so deep in D.C. you need boots to wade through it these days. Watching Starr swim through it passing out leaflets, makes you laugh at what we have become.
Visitor on August 22, 2011 -
Visitor on August 22, 2011 - 11:14pm
Yeah, Seif el-Islam Gadhafi must have a body double. He is on the run alright stirring up trouble.
The whole Tripoli thing is sort of interesting. Not too long ago the anti-Gadhafi forces were running out of ammo and had issues communicating on the ground. Ragtag group that suffered from lack of training and organization.
Then all of a sudden they had TelCo Service. Some one magically spliced a line between Tripoli and the Eastern part of the country and stitched in a Central Office with satellite down/up link.
Now Tripoli gets attacked. Forces from the SW by land and NE by sea in a Hammer & Anvil operation. Prior to the attack, NATO does some softening with air-ground support. If that is not by the book, I do not know what is. Sounds like "the surge" strategy. Something like that needs a lot of close communication and organizing.
Judging from the number of firearms (FALs, AK's from different countries, M2 50's, anti-aircraft guns, and other hardware) looks like the ammo shortage is over. Fire seems pretty free if they have the ammo to blast in the air for cerebration and news footage.
Damn, those CIA folks are good (and expensive). So, how many Palestinian arms shipments have come up missing in the past five years ?
"Evangelical Christianity vs.
"Evangelical Christianity vs. Evangelical Islam: What are the similarities and differences between crusaders and jihadis?"
The last time a crusader killed someone was over 700 years ago, and the last time a jihadi killed someone was... what time is it right now?
One could make a case for at
One could make a case for at least one former US government official meeting the criteria - self-identified Crusader; instrumental in creation of US torture squad. People died.
Christ being one of them, all over again, from my biased perspective.
Elf....did you fart? OMG!
Elf....did you fart? OMG! EARTHQUAAAAAAAKE!
"One could make a case for at
"One could make a case for at least one former US government official meeting the criteria"
That would be about as accurate as the Left's characterization of everyone who disagrees with them as "Nazis".
Starr the Pentagon Mole on
Starr the Pentagon Mole on August 23, 2011 - 6:22am
That Mustard Gas is more dangerous the people that steal it. Libya has the gold and oil to hire the European contractors that helped them make it to destroy it.
I am waiting for the Clinton-Obama US AID for GUNS program.
Clinton spent her life taking away guns from Americans. Clinton made sure in the 90's that US surplus was de-milled so no American could benefit from the junk that the military buys for millions and sells pennies on the dollar. Obama made a grab for spent once fired brass, tried to make sure it was destroyed rather than recycled.
Then this administration turns around a provides more bang than anyone would ever want to a country that sent more jihad fighters to IRAQ than any other Arab country. I mean the stuff that you could not even dream of buying in the US before Ms. Clinton had her way in the 90's.
Now Washington's conscience is bothering them that they let loose a bunch of SAM7s to AQ. They do not have to live with it.
We will never learn. Brand new crop of trained fighters for the cause.
Looks like the Defense budget just got justified.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sz7sC1eQNI&playnext=1&list=PL4BD755ED3D6...
Think it is part of their culture now.
Muammar Gaddafi, the
Muammar Gaddafi, the tyrannical dictator of Libya for four decades, has been killed according to several sources on Twitter.
Malik Al-Abdeh, the Chief Editor of the Syrian pro-democracy satellite channel Barada TV, has also tweeted that he has learned from on-the-ground sources that Gaddafi has been killed.
Now what? How many days till US Troops land in Tripoli?
http://gulagbound.com/wp-cont
http://gulagbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/110821-photo-o6sdV.jpg
Photos already out.
I was waiting for this
I was waiting for this discussion. Don't think America will see Abdel Baset al-Megrahi for a long time to come and I really do not want to pay for his health care. Let him stay in Libya.
Be nice if the Libyans keep track of their nuclear materials. Even with US boots on the ground in Iraq, it did not stop nuclear materials from getting loose. Seeing that Mali is a smuggling route for drugs out of Columbia, there is a vector for shipment to the Americas. Lot more portable than Mustard Gas.
If there are US boots on Libya soil, they will be subcontracted. Fearless only said US military (never said retired, looking for work in a bad economy). Then again, we had Blackwater in Iraq too. It is hard to keep track of the details when you lead from behind.
Dirty MANPADs, Holy Doomsday Batman!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/24/us-usa-libya-lockerbie-idUSTRE...
Representative Nita Lowey, a New York Democrat, called on the Libyan rebels' Transitional National Council "to engage responsibly with the world community by extraditing Abdel Baset al-Megrahi to the United States to face justice for the Lockerbie bombing."
and this
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/24/us-libya-nuclear-heinonen-idUS...
Tajoura continues to stock large quantities of radioisotopes, radioactive waste and low-enriched uranium fuel after three decades of nuclear research and radioisotope production, he said.
.
"While we can be thankful that the highly enriched uranium stocks are no longer in Libya, the remaining material in Tajoura could, if it ended up in the wrong hands, be used as ingredients for dirty bombs. The situation at Tajoura today is unclear."
And yes Visitor, the earth
And yes Visitor, the earth moved in NJ.
actually I was on step machine in the gym when it happened, missed it. LOL.
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