Center for a New American Security

See also David Betz Lewis

See also

David Betz
Lewis Carroll's War
http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2012/01/lewis-carrolls-war/

AND

Christopher Sim's Fighting the Insurgents' War in A'stan
http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/fighting-the-insurgents%E2%80%99-wa...

Yes, the US did produce

Yes, the US did produce propoganda that did in fact dehumanize the japanese soldier. Granted, that same japanese soldier raped Nanking, forced American troops to march to their death in Bataan, where they routinely beheaded American POWs for sport. The Taliban routinely would stone "dirty women" (rape victims) to death, and publicly execute suspected homosexuals. Granted, they keep their young boys around for pleasure, but that is a different subject. Kind of puts some perspective on this.

Cost of doing business. As

Cost of doing business.

As is apparently bowing to the politically incorrect horror, horror!!

When we see the media spend 10% of the time on enemy atrocities that they spend on this incident - and neither this nor Abu Gharib rise to the level of atrocity - I'll take their faux horror and dilettantish outrage a little more seriously.
I wonder if the author has ever spoken to veterans of WW2, Vietnam? This is nothing .

The main lesson here is NO.FCKING.CAMERAS. There's the NCO and leadership breakdown. That and our society teaches it's OK to film anything. Uh, no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv11KilBpHQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

War and images.

Little known facts on the photo.

The shooter received Refugee Status, moved to Northern Virginia, opened a Pizza Shop, he died a free man. He was never questioned or investigated concerning the killing of this POW.

Also, the gun used was a gift from an American. You would be shocked if you knew who.

Images and war can sometimes be confusing, but alas...war is never clean. it's always dirty, chaotic and sometimes very cruel.

These Marines will get through this, just like the good South Vietnamese General did.

If the Corps was even halfway

If the Corps was even halfway serious about addressing the damage their unsupervised and poorly led troops cause the nation with this kind of stupidity the responsible chain of command would tender resignations. The Commandant should accept those resignations at least through the Regimental level. Its too hard a climb from where the apologists would leave us; its easier to defend the moral high ground than have to retake it every day.

I've held comment on this

I've held comment on this issue but have enough respect for this forum to post here. Yes, there was clearly a breakdown in discipline. Yes this is a STRATEGIC nightmare. Yes those Marines should never have done it. But unless you're an ISAF STRATCOMM type or our high level leadership, spare me the hyperbolic flagellation and mea culpas. Out on the pointy end? This is nothing.

I am sick of the "vet as victim" notion perpetuated by people who are...surprise....NOT VETERANS. Guess what? All the embeds in the world don't tell a journalist what we ultimately think/feel/believe because they are again...NOT US. The best among them get a strong sense of it (I'm looking at you Sebastian Junger, CJ Chivers [he is one of us], and Ernie Pyle), but they were never acculturated, trained, or deployed to be one of us (all the better for freedom of speech, an objective [ahem] press, and factual reportage). They fail when they fall back on the romantic, easy to sell story of the scarred veteran and then the public, informed only by what they see in nightly press (or US Weekly) buys it as an absolute.

I've seen more than some, less than some, but here's a secret; I LIKE COMBAT. Not the ass puckering, stomach churning, night-sweating waiting for it, not the cleaning up afterward. I don't like seeing friend OR foe rendered like meat. But the doing, in the moment? There is NOTHING better than knowing you are stripped to your primal essence and fighting for survival along with guys who will die for you and you them. Sometimes, that leads to an emotional high that manifests in different ways. When you put the power of God into 22 year old hands it gets expressed, for good or ill. Here it is for ill, but please recognize, this is the soft end of the spectrum compared to the commonplace actions of our enemies. Anyone remember the 2 sniper teams massacred in Iraq in 2004 and 2006?

Don't mistake me. This is bad. These Marines should be punished. But maintain some semblance of perspective please.

So, as a life long liberal

So, as a life long liberal Democrat, who is STILL against the Iraq war, and who thinks the Afghanistan fight was one we had to do. and This morning when I told my liberal wife and immigration attorney about it we both said who cares what they did to the Taliban dead. All Americans need to do a gut check, If you send young men to battle they will kill their enemy, If their enemy kills them impersonally (IEDs etc) when he kills them back he will be MADDER.
No I don't want our fighting forces pissing on dead enemy bodies, but we have put them in another untenable situation, so
just do all we can to LEAVE Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

Man, this ain't nothin' Gen

Man, this ain't nothin'

Gen Amos used to urinate on Iraqis,

And Gen Mattis used to defecate on them

while still alive.

This ain't nothin'.

Hoooorah!!!

*Ellie's Toe, one combat vet

*Ellie's Toe, one combat vet to another, take it or leave it. Just my opinion. You accuse the press of falling back on the romantic, easy to sell story of the scarred veteran. You do the same thing by falling into the romantic, easy to sell story that firefights are fun. No they're not. You claim to be a combat vet so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't sound like one. Not real combat. I wasn't in fallujah in 2004 (although I was there in 2003) but I was in As Samawah in 2003. Invasion of Iraq with task force falcon, 82nd airborne. From March 26 to basically May 2003, we muscle our way onto and around Baghdad. Not the first there, that was 3ID (my PUC says FT Falcon 3ID) and then 101. We had a tougher fight to get there though. It was pretty shitty. Now, maybe your experience was different. Mine wasn't the worst at all. I'm alive with 4 limbs in tact. Not all my friends are. And when they get hit or blown up right next to you, shit gets real. My friends and I don't blow smoke up civilians asses is all I'm trying to say. Maybe we're made differently. Who knows. Just constructive criticism ofyour r writing. I'm not calling names and won't no matter what. Gladly introduce myself: Steve Kraft. And while combat wasn't exactly fun for me, I'm proud of my actions and accomplishments during the invasion. Not many people get those to say they invaded a fo::reign nation. Not unique but certinly rare. Dial back on the hyperbole and i think you'd come off better. And I'm certainly not a scarred vet.

no, andrew ......its a

no, andrew ......its a FUCKING TREND.
Haditha, the Afghan Kill Squad, Abu Ghraib, Camp No, Gitmo, Fallujah, the Iraqi Rape Squad, Gharani Massacre, Collateral Murder, etc. etc.
Bush tossed our soljahs into an unwinnable, immoral, and unjustifiable horrorshow. This was utterly predictable.
Time to GTFO.
Naow.

Steve Kraft, you make some

Steve Kraft, you make some good points, not least of which is that perhaps I should not type after a day of bombardment on this story and while still heavily influenced by Alex Horton's excellent article on the fallacy of assuming every vet has PTSD. I also salute you for posting your name and acknowledge my own less than impressive unwillingness to reciprocate. I appreciate the constructive criticism on what is admittedly somewhat hyperbolic writing and you giving me the benefit of the doubt as to combat veteran status, I will extend the same to you. However, I think you somewhat fell into the same trap as I when you laid out your explanation of when "shit gets real".

What is real combat? You say I don't sound like a "real combat vet". Obviously the invasion of Iraq (which I watched you execute from the comfort of my easy chair) was real. Acknowledging that, was it real when the guy going through a door in front of me got shot one night in 2004? Was it real when 40% of my platoon got purple hearts (another "honor" I was able to avoid)? You tell me. I acknowledge some hyperbole, you might do the same. I've deployed to war twice, one was a combat tour (Iraq 2004/2005, not in Fallujah either) , one (Afghanistan 2010) saw me safely on a staff behind blast walls and wire where the only danger was being hit by an extremely errant (and rare) mortar round or rocket or stapling my own thumb. Please note I never said combat was "fun", it was not. It was frightening, anxiety inducing, and sometimes tragic. It was also incredibly exhilarating in the moment and I can objecctively say I liked that part very much. Having spent 14 of my 18 years in "special", all volunteer units, I suspect I am in a self selecting crowd because I am/was absolutely not alone in that response. And no, I am not unfamiliar with the death of friends and comrades. My memorial list is in double digits at this point. There is not a damn thing about the exhilaration of combat that I liked so much that is worth one of them.

All that said, I think you either misunderstood one of my points or I failed to express it well. I am NOT questioning a veteran who is having problems blaming it on their experiences. I have seen enough good, brave, strong men reach their limits to believe, very sincerely, that people suffer legitimate ills because of war. I AM questioning the uninitiated's rush to ascribe everything to the notion that ALL of us must be damaged and missing the fact that some guys are very comfortable in that environment, enjoy the rush, and that the effects thereof can cause incidents like this that are then decried for convenience by the professionally outraged (that does not excuse their actions and, in my opinion they will likely deserve the max under the UCMJ if proven guilty). That does not lessen the reality that some guys are having significant problems re-adjusting and deserve all the help we can give them (nor should there be one iota of stigma attached). My perhaps inartful post above was intended to express the idea that guys get into the moment, and bad things happen, but that does not equate to victim status.

You say that you are "certainly not a scarred vet", and that is EXACTLY my point. Neither am I. I went, did the job I VOLUNTEERED for, came home and continue to do it (though in a safer assignment and rank at this point). Whether you did 4 years or 40, you and I volunteered and we're not victims. Many guys did and saw a lot more than me. But the public rush to assume we're victims simply because we were there sticks in my craw and subsequently using it to explain why these guys did something demonstrates a misunderstanding of our warrior culture on the part of the very people we serve. I am a professional service member, not a victim. The instant case of 4 guys peeing on bodies is an example of something that can happen when "shit gets real". It should not be excused due to the automatic assumption that these guys are damaged goods and our citizenry should understand that even good guys get carried away in the exhilaration of combat. Especially self selected groups like USMC snipers, a community with which I am very familiar.

Just my four cents. Best to you.

Hmmm... remember when those

Hmmm... remember when those four U.S. soldier-contractors were killed and their bodies dragged and hung in 2004 in Fallujah? What was the result?

The assault - conducted by some 10,000 US troops and 500 Iraqi troops under their command, using tanks, artillery and attack helicopters - was preceded by weeks of nightly air strikes on residential buildings, restaurants and mosques. The strikes were designed to terrorise the city's population of 340,000, causing up to 200,000 of them to flee to Baghdad.

It's not like desecrating corpses "wins hearts and minds," is it?

I'm pretty sure Exum is a

I'm pretty sure Exum is a Presbyterian which is odd since the Scots aren't known for observing the niceties of war (for that matter who is?). The rules of armed conflict are a fairly recent addition.

I don't understand what "absence of supervision" has to do with the incident; these Marine Snipers are presumably NCOs and understand concepts like "responsibility" and "standards". People make mistakes, specially in wartime, whether or not someone's looking over their shoulders. I defended a 1st SGT with 6 previous combat tours dating back to Panama who slapped an interpreter because he was giving information to the insurgents. He was charged with a war crime; if anyone should understood these concepts it would have been him. Yet he did not think he had done anything wrong. Perhaps if the convening authority had kept it simple, he would not have rationalized his behavior. Pissing on dead bodies-wrong; war crime - no. The impact on a culture obsessed with outward display of respect - got it, not good. But please don't tell me it's the equivalent of the Rape of Nanking. Horrific is a word I reserve for almost 3000 non combatants being targeted and murdered because they went to work or got on a plane. Let's have a proportional response.

Nonetheless, these ad hominem attacks are asinine.

Are you monitoring these

Are you monitoring these comments? "...I'll piss in your mouth." The level of discourse is pathetic.

Some of the comments above

Some of the comments above are quite frankly unprofessional. That being said this country develops people who we need to go in and break and kill things. That is a need this country has. Expecting the people we develop to perform those tasks, so that others may eat tv dinners and sleep at night, to then be prim and proper enough to take for a spot of tea with the Queen is a bit absurd. Do accomplish both well a person would perhaps need to have some sort of mental disorder as it seems like one would need to possess two separate personalities.

What exactly is sanitizing

What exactly is sanitizing about Speilberg...especially Saving Private Ryan? The first 20 minutes? The part where Wade cries for his mother while he is dying? Or the part where CPT Miller breaks down over the loss of Wade? What movie were you watching, Exum?

NEA grant first. LOL. Had

NEA grant first. LOL. Had the same thought.

That should be the Marine's defense - it was totally respectful performance art, titled "Piss Mo", and call it a day.

Grow up about war America.

Just another Taliban

Just another Taliban recruitment video, is all. Probably plays well to young kids.

Of course, if a video was made showing Taliban urinating on dead American corpses, there would be outrage and cries for revenge, wouldn't there? Or maybe, instead, all the media pundits would say "oh, pissing on dead soldiers isn't as bad as killing them, so no big deal"?

I doubt it.

Steve Kraft, Consider a

Steve Kraft,

Consider a beverage of your choice lifted in your general direction. Concur with all in your last post and I think your "nobody died in my arms" comment is especially well made. Blessedly, none did in mine either, but I did watch a friend bleed out over half an hour and would not wish that on anyone. That being said, I think we would be lesser men if we did not feel like we have not given as much as the next guy. Because I see my own experience through the prism of friends in Fallujah 2004 or Helmand province now, I never feel like I've given everything I can. Lest I seem callous, again, I am not glorifying war and I am absolutely decrying the effects on us, the enemy, and most of all the civilian populace. But I am self aware enough to know that, in the immediacy of the moment, before you have to deal with the consequences, you "see yourself illuminated", as a friend of mine says, in a way that cannot be found otherwise, and there was some (perhaps perverse) enjoyment in that. That said, you have my sincerest and most comprehending sympathy at your losses (and I must admit I never really thought while running through the woods in peacetime training that I would ever actually have cause to pluralize "loss").

I am a Marine, but I don't think that gives me a whole lot of insight into these Marine's behavior that a combat experienced paratrooper wouldn't have. I suspect you are spot on about the failure in leadership and I agree this is the behavior of these Marines and not indicative of any of the rest of our character, which is again my point. I think most of us are ultimately the better for our service (data backs this up). I usually say a douchebag doesn't stop being a douche because he joins the service. He's generally just a douche in uniform. Add some late teens/early twenties immaturity, some powerful weapons and presto! Strategic nightmare and histrionic hand wringing from the cheap seats.

Ultimately, as you so aptly say, "personal responsibility is at play." But that doesn't play well with the mass of our culture so removed from what the .5% of us who actually locate, close with, and destroy the enemy do. Thus they paint us all with the convenient brush of damaged goods, never realizing some of us are actually good at this and just do it in the same way they sell insurance, bring litigation, or fix cars.

Best to you and those like you, damn few left.

And oh by the way, Riley Sise

And oh by the way, Riley Sise is absolutely correct, TB rules of engagement have no bearing on our own. The morally relativist comparisons are a red herring. However, they are instructive in the nature of the TB when they try to use the issue too stridently to impugn the broader ISAF effort.

At the end of the day, really

At the end of the day, really do not think that these guys did anything that warrants the level of damnation by our public mouth pieces and leaders. What was done is not a reason to ruin their lives. What is being said in the press is about politics.

Guys on the line have been showing each other how much they love each other since the first war was waged, it is a right of passage.

Maybe the solution is to bring diversity to war, the liberals can recruit the enemy to fight their wars. Diversity is always the solution. Little sensitivity to the enemy's culture is the path. lol.

It is time to bring ALL the troops home (including the CIA and SoS Army in Iraq).

I think it is perfectly

I think it is perfectly reasonable to believe that what these Marines did was understandable given the stresses and danger of combat in Afghanistan. I don't think anyone that knows any history will believe this is the most egregious thing ever done in a combat zone or even in any of America's recent conflicts. But to understand motivations does not excuse actions. The United States, rightly, presents itself as maintaining a higher level of moral fortitude in the conduct of our combat operations. We try to minimize civilian deaths and destruction. We (usually) apologize when these events take place. What these Marines and their absent NCOs and JOs have done is a great deal of damage to that narrative. US forces can probably win any single tactical engagement they get involved in but the long-term power of the United States emanates from the idea that we are different from our enemies. We cannot take our moral cues from the Taliban, Russians in Chechnya or Chinese in Korea. As a professional military with an accountable chain of command, we have to be better than that. It is extremely hard, there will be lapses and it means tough discipline for those soldiers and Marines required to treat an eneemy with respect. But that is the price that is paid for saying that these servicemen represent a civilized society. To simply dismiss this episode and say "war is hell" makes us no different that any other military. The American military is different and we are better for maintaining a higher standard of conduct.

Pete Ellis' Big Toe on

Pete Ellis' Big Toe on January 13, 2012 - 1:20pm

We are saying the same thing.

The real question is about how to discipline these guys.

You are dealing with the strategy of war in Afghanistan as well as the strategy of American politics. The cog ratio from Obama to the guys relieving themselves is about a million to one. When Obama's cog turns a MOA, the guys in the trench spin at light speed.

This is not about a bunch of grunts being silly, it is about CYA and posturing of the guys in command.

Punishing these guys is the wrong thing to do. If you go that direction, the guys on the front line will ask for plastic safety bullets. Having Hillary get on stage saying we are going to punish these Marines to the fullest extent of the law is a bunch of BS. All she needs to say is that America does not agree with what is shown in the video. Let the Generals call the grunts on the carpet and tell them the screwed up and let them get back to work.

This has little to do with being in combat, it has everything to do with the psychology of group competition.

The vast majority of the

The vast majority of the Afghan population has no internet or mass media access. They don't know about this like the developed world does.

Big Toe, I say I'm not a Marine out of respect for you crazy cats, but I did serve with a small subset of the Army that I think shares esprit de corp with you guys. Big Army, not so much. The lightfighters (82nd, 101st, 10th MTN) do. We chose rapidly deployable units without the protection of armor for a reason.

A douchebag is a douchebag, a criminal is a criminal, and rarley do those leopards change their spots. Often, a wayward kid with criminal and/or douchebag tendencies is turned around by military service, but it really takes at least one great NCO to get that ball rolling.

My beverage of choice these days is Welch's grape soda. I'll raise one to our fallen brothers tonight.
Airborne.

V/R JWest Said like a person

V/R JWest

Said like a person that knows the process.

COL G.S. Patton III's Christmas card? Cord wood is an echo that I heard from Somalia of 1993 fame.

Every profession has its own language.